Reply With QuoteThat is lot of meat wasted, what a shame, I reserve my 300 rum (don't have one) for squirrels.
A fast bullet will destroy meat due to the vibrational energy.
I'll start by saying I didn't shoot this one and yes it's Ultra dead. I borrowed this photo from another forum. I used to be of the school of thought that there was no such thing as too dead or too much gun till I saw it for myself. Yes it's graphic but necessary to show the power of such cartridges. Deer was shot with a 180gr core loct from a .300RUM. I promise that the shock was so great that there is very little of this deer worth eating. I got the rear hams and a small portion of the backstraps from the one I shot with a 180 sirocco bonded at 250 yards several years ago. After having the same results several years ago I parked my 116 FLSS in .300 ultra dead. I know many people read numbers etc on the internet and think "the .308 is almost the same as the -06 there's only a couple of hundred FPS difference. Or the .300 Win mag is about the same as the .300RUM there is only a couple of hundred FPS difference. Truth when you double the velocity you multiply impact by a factor of 9. That's right 9. That couple of hundred FPS can literally make a cartridge hit with easily double or triple the energy of the next couple of calibers down. If you didn't know what these modern magnums do to game I hope you learned something. If you already did know it's just gore.
Last edited by big honkin jeep; 11-14-2013 at 11:26 PM.
A good wife and a steady job has ruined many a great hunter.
That is lot of meat wasted, what a shame, I reserve my 300 rum (don't have one) for squirrels.
A fast bullet will destroy meat due to the vibrational energy.
newbie from gr, mi.
...and hydraulics.Originally Posted by Stockrex
I saw one like that down here this year with a 30-06 from 50 yards. Yep the deer is definitely dead.
Doesn't seem ethical IMO. My favorite cartridge inside 100 yards: 30/30.
They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
Got a friend who takes deer all the time with his 300 win mag and it doesn't blow them up--did you recover the bullet or did it explode in the innards? Just wondering.
[B][COLOR="#FF8C00"]Shooting--it's like high-speed golf[/COLOR][/B]
i guess if we all hunted inside 100 yds there wouldnt be any need for anything more. my first rifle was a 94 win. 30/30.
at one time it was the most popular cartridge in america.
obviously some feel thats where we should all be and magnums should be outlawed.
It probably doesn't help that the little deer probably weighs around 70 pounds. Looks like some kind of ballistic tip too. I prefer bonded bullets for deer personally.
Thermaler I didn't shoot this one. I shot a couple several years ago when the 30-06 I was hunting with had a long hand load that left a bullet stuck in the lands. I didn't have a cleaning rod to dislodge it only a bore snake and I was 300 miles from home. I had my .300RUM in camp and decided to hunt with it. I had never taken a game animal with it before and had gotten an unreal deal it from a friend who fired it 5 times and decided it was too much gun. ($250) 116 FLSSAK I was shooting Remington factory ammo loaded with a 180gr sirocco bonded bullet that I had sighted the rifle in with. I shot 2 deer the same evening, a buck and a doe at around 250-260 yards. At that range with the .300RUM you just put the crosshairs on em and squeeze the trigger. The doe was broadside and went down like a ton of bricks. When I flipped her over the results were exactly the same as seen in the photo. No bullet recovered. The buck was facing me and I shot him in the chest. It left about a 3/4" entrance wound exactly where I had aimed with no exit. after seeing what had happened to the doe I was a little more optimistic with the buck. When I hung him on the gambrels and made an incision to dress him a steady stream of purple goop pushed out and filled the gut bucket, basically leaving a nearly empty hide hanging there. I dressed him out and everything inside was destroyed and blood shocked to purple goo and bone fragments. The bullet passed through him lengthwise and stopped in the right ham between the meat and the skin nearly making an exit. I recovered a perfectly mushroomed bullet and was only able to get one ham from the left side as table fare. The does whole front end was destroyed and I got both hams and a small portion of backstraps from near her rear. after returning home I relegated it to range duty. several months later I went to the range and benched 2 boxes from it in an afternoon. The next day I woke up with bad chest pain. I went to the doctor who ran lots of expensive tests (heart attack type) as well as X rays. Not knowing about my range session with the beast he informed me that somehow I had separated my ribs from my sternum. I had no bruising or tenderness of my shoulder thanks to the limbsaver and the factory brake. After this I pulled the scope and put it on my 22-250 and parked the .300 ultra dead in the safe. Kinda a rare bird too as the 116 FLSAK would make a fine left handed .338 Edge repeater that would feed from the mag. Any way that's my story of learning that there is indeed such thing as too much gun and too dead.
Last edited by big honkin jeep; 11-15-2013 at 12:21 AM.
A good wife and a steady job has ruined many a great hunter.
180gr Remington Core Loct on this one. Not sure of the size of the one in the pic, but I would guess the doe I shot would have gone about 125# before her guts fell out, and a 180gr Remington factory loaded Sirocco bonded did the same thing at 250+ yards. When a bullet hits bone, even a little rib, going that fast it turns everything to shrapnel. The hydrastatic shock of a bullet traveling that fast turns the liquid inside into a shock wave that does absolutely incredible damage. There's a lot of internet talk but this is the no BS reality of the .300RUM I am certainly no advocate of outlawing anything. Just using the right cartridge for the right job. Remington has had so many complaints of this type of damage that the .300RUM ammo now comes in 3 different power levels, The whole point of the original postin of such graphic carnage was to separate the truth from internet BS and to help wake up those that don't know to what a couple of hundred more FPS can do. Lots of folks thinking is misconstrued taking those couple of hundred FPS for granted and not understanding the physics behind it.
Last edited by big honkin jeep; 11-15-2013 at 12:18 AM.
A good wife and a steady job has ruined many a great hunter.
...wasn't very good shot placement with the Uber Mag...
Definitely have to watch speed/load/range combo--I've heard from a hunter who was mystified when his perfectly-placed 243 vaporized on impact.
[B][COLOR="#FF8C00"]Shooting--it's like high-speed golf[/COLOR][/B]
I know that hydrostatic shock can be a source of much discussion and debate, so I am not going that direction other than to say that my understanding was that velocity was one of the major factors in that idea. Now, looking at the Hodgdon manual and .300 RUM loads, it shows 180 grain bullets at a max of around 3200 fps, and .300 WM at 3050 fps. I have shot several deer with the Win mag, and never had this problem. I use a Nosler Partition and shoot them in the crease behind the shoulder. My exit wounds are generally around an inch in diameter. I have also shot dozens of deer with a .280 and 140 grain partitions, and doubt that I could have told the difference in the damage. This brings the question of kinetic energy to mind. Obviously, a .280 and a RUM have vast differences in energy. What confounds this for me is looking at a 45-70 shooting a 300 grain bullet at much lower velocity, but creating more kinetic energy than the RUM and again, nothing close to that damage. Now that I have made this as clear as mud, why does the RUM create this kind of damage? I still stand by my idea of poor bullet selection in many cases, but I also agree with BoilerUp on the idea that there was poor shot placement on this particular deer. This is definitely interesting if the damage is unique to this cartridge, but a look at the reloading data does not really suggest that to me since we are talking about an advertised velocity difference of 150 fps.
About 25 years ago a friend who was hunting with us on our farm said he ran out or ammo and left his spares back at the house. We were both shooting 270 Win. so he ask me if I had a couple extra until we got close the house. I gave him some of my reloads, I think I was loading 130 Sie. then at about 3200 fps. Later he killed a nice 6 point Buck and we were all looking it over and the only hit on it was across the left front corner of the chest. The bullet had gone between the hide and the meat without even cutting the thin membrane on the meat but tearing a patch of hide off about 7 inches across. The deer had been quartering to him and he had only fired one shot and it dropped in it's tracks. The only thing I could figure a shock wave from bullet energy had stopped his heart. This was about a 150 to 160 lb Deer.
saw pretty much the same thing on a deer shot with 7mm mag at 50yrds with 165grn ballistic tip, deer was 165lb 5 point which no longer had an opposite shoulder or chest for that matter, under 200yrd where most people hunt whitetails standard cal will kill them dead all day long with out the mag recoil
BHJ makes a valid point with his OP. I know that (when I have help) I will butcher my own deer. As such the best part of the meat is found in the back from the base of the neck to the tail. The "tenderloins" are the two pieces of the backstraps that wrap under the rear of the spine (by the tail) and under the spine. Usually these are about 6" to 8" long and are the best pieces of meat. The hind quarters are next with definite sections of them being good quality meats, and others being tough and good for grinding up and making jerky. The neck's I usually de-bone and toss in an all day crock pot as the neck meat is tough…but with the right seasonings can be a wonderful italian "roast beef" type sandwich meal. (And I do mean wonderful!!) The front shoulders have some decent meat, but not the best cuts.
So, after all of that, the OP's photo shows us that about one-fourth of the quality meat on this doe was lost because of "overkill."
Now, I use my Marlin 45-70 a lot to shoot deer with. Mostly doe, but I've taken a few buck with it. I use an all lead flat nose 405 grain bullet loaded to an MV of about 1600fps. Hardly is that a screaming eagle speed…..and the bullet does virtually no expansion. But, I do my very best to get a broadside lung shot. The bullet will usually exit (I know it doesn't expand as the exit wound is the same size as the entrance wound…even if I take a rib out on the way in and on the way out) any size deer.
Of course, the big plus is….there is no, or very little blood trail. That's because even the big ones just drop right there. The double lung hit seems to cause such a pulmonary shock to 'em that they drop in there tracks. Of course, since I've just hit 'em in the ribs, there is no loss of meat. Unlike a cow, deer have almost no meat on their ribs. Some….a little, but for me, there's no amount of meat there worth the effort of scraping off.
So, there you have it. A big thumping 405 non-expanding bullet will kill 'em right now with no loss of quality meat…..vs a magnum that will expand and Atomic upon exit. Go the mid route with a MV bullet of 2500 to 2700 fps and a ballistic tip or a lead tip. Dead is dead…..but really dead isn't required.
Dave
I don't think this is the kind of photos we as hunters should post on an open forum! You do realize other people can download that photo and use it in any way they see fit!
Just my 2 cents
Kelly
YOU CAN'T FIX STUPID !
Maybe. But I disagree. I think its value to educate other hunters has more value to us than it does to the opponents of hunting.
Personally I will always choose to err on the side of the larger cartridge for game but there are obvious limits IMO.
Looks like some deer I have seen shot with match bullets. Of course that argument will never end either.
Ed Bell, PA Deer Hunter & NRA Life Member ~ “The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.”~
Not to stir the pot but my stepfather shot 2 deer yesterday in the Michigan opener with his 300rum. The first was an averaged sized 3 point at roughly 100 yards. The second was an average sized doe at about 260 yards. The buck was a spine shot just behind the front shoulders, the doe was a double lung shot. Both had guts that were still intact, no jelly. Neither had an exit hole over 1". He was shooting the Remington ammo 180gr core-lokt power level 2.
From what I just read about this ammo on the Midway web site http://www.midwayusa.com/product/236...vc=subv1595448 the power level II is made for shooting whitetails and muley's. The bullet is a lead core bonded bullet (not a ballistic tip) and made to give a controlled expansion and keep most of it's weight. Ballistic tip bullets are meant to explode on impact and essentially turn everything to mush, then blow it out the other side. I once hit a groundhog at 30 yards with a 40gr. BT at 2400fps MV. It literally turned the entire rib cage inside out.
If you do your research and reload your cartridges, you can arrive at the same place that Rem does with their power factor ammo. Good stuff when used for the right job.
Dave
Dave, The right ammo for the job is very important and the all of the reduced "Power level" ammo from remington works well. Remington also produced some. Managed recoil ammo that mimics 30-06 velocity. I must throw out a word of caution about reducing powder charges below published minimums especially with this large case. Hang fires are very likely (click...1...2...3...BOOM) and overpressure is also a distinct possibility. I Was able to get some safe reduced load data for this cartridge from Ramshot powders by contacting them online. Good luck and stay safe.
A good wife and a steady job has ruined many a great hunter.
PS the deer in the pic was NOT shot with a ballistic tip, or any other plastic tipped or match bullet. It was a full powered factory loaded 180gr Remington Core Loct soft point
A good wife and a steady job has ruined many a great hunter.
With respect I disagree with the ballistic tip observation--as named it simply describes the action of the tip on impact to initiate expansion--not necessarily what happens to the core/body of the bullet. Nosler's varmint grade bullet IS designed to explode on impact--but that's mostly due to it's purpose-built thin jacket design, and the same result will happen with any similar design. I think what this example shows is that even "conventional controlled-expansion" designs can become miniature artillery rounds when driven to the edge of their speed/stability designs, which may not necessarily be a function of the ammo itself but the weapon and/or application it's used for.
[B][COLOR="#FF8C00"]Shooting--it's like high-speed golf[/COLOR][/B]
Two observations:
First, this deer was shot with a full power 300RUM Core Lok Rem bullet. That was stated in the OP and I suppose I didn't directly address this in any of my post, but I indirectly address this. However…none of that matters as I will give you my thoughts on (and remember, my opinion is worth what you paid for it) shooting any whitetail with a full power 300RUM no matter what the bullet. Unless, the bullet is a low right thru the heart shot, or a quality double lung shot….in between the ribs (and that's a low % chance of happening) shot, then using a "magnumites" full load caliber on whitetail is likely going to be too much power. (As witnessed by the OP photo.) A loaded down version of the core lock would have still killed the deer, and done much less damage. Of course, a better place shot with a loaded down cartridge (say around 2700fps MV) would kill the deer.
Second: The :Ballistic Tip bullets are designed to open up much faster than a conventional lead tip bullet. So, your wound channel begins much sooner and the expansion of the bullet begins sooner….and of course…opens more as it travels thru the game. So, it stands to reason that shooting the same weight bullet of a lead tip vs. a BT when hitting a deer at the same POI, the BT will exit the deer, having a larger bullet expansion than that of a lead tip. The BT will have caused more damage and released more energy into the deer.
So, I'm not saying it's a bad idea to shoot a BT at whitetail….heck, they make BT's to kill whitetail. All I'm saying is if your shooting these at a close range from a 300RUM, then you better get better at shot placement, or (and likely a better choice) is to have your 300RUM's ammo loaded down so you don't damage your whitetails as the OP's photo shows.
I've loaded and shot 7mm BT's at whitetails and they perform quite well. But these were from a 7-30 waters T\C 14" hand-pistol barrel. The MV was about 2,000fps and the bullet did it's job. The deer were all about 100 yards. Of course, at those velocities, no large explosions took place.
And better shot placement always helps.
Dave
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