Can a custom Savage shoot consistently under 0.25 MOA, or the action is the limit?

[bsekf]

Foxx, yes he shot MOA with a rifle that I have seen shoot < .5 MOA. Just not yesterday. Please do understand, these were not BR rifles, but most are capable of 1/2 MOA or less. I shot a 5 shot < .5 MOA groups with both my rifles on Saturday and yesterday I shot 2 MOA groups. Consistency is the Tur* in the punch bowl. My spotter said I caught a 30mph wind change just as I shot, plus I called an inch .....it was 4 inches out. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Bill

[pdog06]

the question should be, Can you, as the shooter, shoot a 1/4moa aggregate with a certain rifle?

I believe that a Savage(with aftermarket barrel, proper bedding, etc) is surely capable of 1/4moa groups consistantly. However, it is all of the other variables that come into play that make that feat so rare(shooter, wind, reloading skills, parallax, shooting distance, etc).

Im sure all of us(or atleast most) have shot groups now and then of under 1/4moa, maybe even consistantly for a few range trips or so, but to average over a long period of time is extremely hard.

I am not ashamed to say that I know I cannot do it. I just do not shoot enough(what is enough anyway...LOL). I am 100% sure my 6br is capable, but I am not. I have shot some very small groups with it and have rarely shot any bad groups with it. I would guess that my agg should be around the mid to high .3 - low .4 moa area, as that is where the majority of my groups end up due to my own shooting errors(I dont shoot comp so i dont keep record of it. just going on memory). But to say it is the guns fault it isnt shooting under 1/4moa isnt fair. The only thing that I have proven is how consistant I am(or am not) as the shooter with that particular setup.

So my answer to the OP is, YES, I believe that a Savage rifle is capable.

[82boy]

Lets take a closer look at this question all together. The OP asked "Can a custom Savage shoot consistently under 0.25 MOA, or the action is the limit?" When talking constantly this means every time the trigger is pulled that 9 time out of 10 the gun will put the shots in a 1/4 MOA hole. I would argue that not even the best Benchrest gun is able of doing this, even with the most experienced shooter. There is many things that affect shooting, such as Mirage, Wind, light, and many other conditions.

Don't believe me go through Benchrest match reports, and look at the aggregates shot. Yes, there is days where there will be small groups shot, but look at the overall picture. I will use for an example the last registered match I shot in. When we shot the NBRSA Eastern Finally, Greg Wally won with a over all .2512 2 gun Aggregate. This is just slightly over a 1/4 MOA. Hall of Fame member Jack Neary finished 2nd with a .2521 2 gun agg. And Ted Heindeselman (One of the best shooters I know.) finished 3rd with a .2534 2 gun agg. On Saturday we had very good conditions, many called it a "trigger pull contest," There was light rain, and very little to no wind. The flags sat limp most of the morning. This was a 100 yard match, with 5 shots shot at each record target. The best agg was a .1682 by Steve Theye, He shot very well, but when it came down to 4 match's his total aggregate was .2661. Back to the first 100 yard match the top 6 all shot under 1/4 MOA, Now from 7th to 25 all shot over a 1/4 MOA. Now if you take all of the shooters that shoot in this match with these good conditions, there total group aggregate come out to an average of .2885, well over a 1/4 MOA. Now out of this group, these was all experienced shooters shooting the best equipment money has to offer. I am not trying to cut anyone down, but to say that any rifle will shoot 1/4 MOA an given day all day long, is a bit far fetched.

Now going back to the original question: "Can a custom Savage shoot consistently under 0.25 MOA, or the action is the limit?" The answer is no, no gun can. To answer the part of your question about is a Savage limited by its action, the answer is no. A Savage action will hang with a Full custom action and be ever bit as competitive. In the end the action is only an ignition source, where true accuracy is at is in the barrel and bullets. As long as the action is operating in the right capacity, having proper firing pin travel, with the correct weight of spring to ensure proper ignition, they are all equal. Now there is some features that will help a shooter do better such as port configuration, trigger weight, bolt throw length, ETC, but they are only because they ensure confidence into the shooter, and they fell comfortable. There is a big mental aspect to this game.

[bsekf]

Well put pdog.

Keep the information coming, it's the only way we can improve.

Bill

[kevin1]

Lets take a closer look at this question all together. The OP asked "Can a custom Savage shoot consistently under 0.25 MOA, or the action is the limit?" When talking constantly this means every time the trigger is pulled that 9 time out of 10 the gun will put the shots in a 1/4 MOA hole. I would argue that not even the best Benchrest gun is able of doing this, even with the most experienced shooter. There is many things that affect shooting, such as Mirage, Wind, light, and many other conditions.

Don't believe me go through Benchrest match reports, and look at the aggregates shot. Yes, there is days where there will be small groups shot, but look at the overall picture. I will use for an example the last registered match I shot in. When we shot the NBRSA Eastern Finally, Greg Wally won with a over all .2512 2 gun Aggregate. This is just slightly over a 1/4 MOA. Hall of Fame member Jack Neary finished 2nd with a .2521 2 gun agg. And Ted Heindeselman (One of the best shooters I know.) finished 3rd with a .2534 2 gun agg. On Saturday we had very good conditions, many called it a "trigger pull contest," There was light rain, and very little to no wind. The flags sat limp most of the morning. This was a 100 yard match, with 5 shots shot at each record target. The best agg was a .1682 by Steve Theye, He shot very well, but when it came down to 4 match's his total aggregate was .2661. Back to the first 100 yard match the top 6 all shot under 1/4 MOA, Now from 7th to 25 all shot over a 1/4 MOA. Now if you take all of the shooters that shoot in this match with these good conditions, there total group aggregate come out to an average of .2885, well over a 1/4 MOA. Now out of this group, these was all experienced shooters shooting the best equipment money has to offer. I am not trying to cut anyone down, but to say that any rifle will shoot 1/4 MOA an given day all day long, is a bit far fetched.

Now going back to the original question: "Can a custom Savage shoot consistently under 0.25 MOA, or the action is the limit?" The answer is no, no gun can. To answer the part of your question about is a Savage limited by its action, the answer is no. A Savage action will hang with a Full custom action and be ever bit as competitive. In the end the action is only an ignition source, where true accuracy is at is in the barrel and bullets. As long as the action is operating in the right capacity, having proper firing pin travel, with the correct weight of spring to ensure proper ignition, they are all equal. Now there is some features that will help a shooter do better such as port configuration, trigger weight, bolt throw length, ETC, but they are only because they ensure confidence into the shooter, and they fell comfortable. There is a big mental aspect to this game.

Thank you for focusing the debate on the original topic.

But I’ll have to disagree with your conclusions.

First, you can eliminate the variables you mentioned (Mirage, Wind, light) by shooting in a 100 yard rifle tunnel.

Second, there are manufacturers that build rifles with a guaranteed 0.25 MOA accuracy, and here’s an example:
“All of our M24E2 Rifles are guaranteed to produce sub 0.25 MOA Accuracy”
http://www.superiortactical.com/cust...013-m24e2.html

[wbm]

Thank you for focusing the debate on the original topic.

Was wondering if it would get back to that.

[davemuzz]

“All of our M24E2 Rifles are guaranteed to produce sub 0.25 MOA Accuracy”
http://www.superiortactical.com/cust...013-m24e2.html

If they didn't "guarantee it", they couldn't charge $5,000+ for the rifle. Right? OTOH….what does "Guarantee" actually mean? The rifle will do this? Because it certainly can't mean the shooter will.

BTW….if you want a "Certification of Rifle (Nominal Average Accuracy Certification)" that's going to cost you an additional $200. Wha? First, I have to shell out $5,495, plus shipping and FFL transfer fees…..then to get written "acknowledgment" of the ¼ M.O.A. Accuracy Guarantee, I have to give them another $200? For what? A piece of paper that they already state the gun shoots anyway? What? I may have been born at night…..it just wasn't last night.

Dave

[LoneWolf]

+1

If they didn't "guarantee it", they couldn't charge $5,000+ for the rifle. Right? OTOH….what does "Guarantee" actually mean? The rifle will do this? Because it certainly can't mean the shooter will.

Dave

I think it just means the rifle is capable of that kind of accuracy. Seriously though, I don't know anyone that can maintain a 2 1/2" group at 1000yds, so what's it matter if you can shoot a 1/4" at 100yds. Sub 1/2" groups at 100yds is plenty for me.

[82boy]

Thank you for focusing the debate on the original topic.

But I’ll have to disagree with your conclusions.

First, you can eliminate the variables you mentioned (Mirage, Wind, light) by shooting in a 100 yard rifle tunnel.

Second, there are manufacturers that build rifles with a guaranteed 0.25 MOA accuracy, and here’s an example:
“All of our M24E2 Rifles are guaranteed to produce sub 0.25 MOA Accuracy”
http://www.superiortactical.com/cust...013-m24e2.html

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
First off, even in a 100 yard tunnel there is still variables, just different variables than is found outside in the real world. A gun that is not in tune will never shoot no matter how good a for a shooter you place behind the trigger, or how good the conditions are. Here is an article that was in precision shooting magazine back around 1993 called "Secretes of the Houston Warehouse." http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.html . I have talked to several shooters that have shoot in the Houston warehouse in the 1970's and 1980's, and they all said the same thing that they gained a wealth of knowledge in the warehouse, but for all intended purposes you could take all of the and throw it in the trash because it did not apply in the real world outside, where 99% of rifle shooters are going to shoot. So unless your intended purpose is to be shooting in a 100 yard tunnel 100% of the time you fire a rifle, then we have to pay close attention to the outside variables, and consider them part of the equation.

Last off these manufactures that guarantee .25 MOA accuracy, why don't you see any of them building Benchrest rifles? If they are truly that good why don't you see anyone competitively use one of them in Benchrest? They never state what there guarantee is, just that is will "produce sub .25 MOA accuracy." What does that exactly mean? Does it mean it will do this in a tunnel? I bet a Factory Savage with a good tune could accomplice this in a tunnel. Does this guarantee mean a 3 shot or a 5 shot or maybe a 2 shot group? They don't say. With this guarantee, I doubt they are talking an aggregate. I can shoot one group under .25, and say it is guaranteed to do this, but it doesn't mean it will do it every time, and that is what the OP is asking for a consistent .25 aggregate groups size. Last off I have seen people with these manufactured rifles attempting to shoot 600 yard Benchrest, I have yet to see one that has ever impressed me.

[bsekf]

Hi Patrick, I wondered where you were. Everyone should read about the Houston Warehouse and the information on triggers and the action tolerance's. Realizing it was a long time ago and equipment has improved.....maybe.

I reiterate, consistent quarter minute rifles and shooters are few and far between and will win a lot of BR tournaments.

In regard to the OP, yes, I think a savage or most anything can be built to shoot consistent .25"s, but there are a lot of variables. Few of us can get all the moons aligned at the same time, let alone every time.

There are a lot of great targets posted in this 6 page discussion. Tell us what you have done to the rifle, and barrel, and reloading, and trigger and what a 10 shot group looks like.

Bill

[FW Conch]

Yes! Let's see that "guarantee " in detailed writing! :-)

[82boy]

Second, there are manufacturers that build rifles with a guaranteed 0.25 MOA accuracy, and here’s an example:
“All of our M24E2 Rifles are guaranteed to produce sub 0.25 MOA Accuracy”
http://www.superiortactical.com/cust...013-m24e2.html

Well, bad news I tried to call this company to ask about there guarantee, and I keep getting a message "Sorry this number has been discontinued." Even the BBB shows them as disconnected. http://www.bbb.org/evansville/busine...on-ky-90042577

[Teancum1]

There is a HUGE difference between 1/2 MOA performance and 1/4 MOA performance. Bragging up "5 shots covered by a dime" can be as much as 0.6". Pretty good. Great for gophers, but a long ways from 1/4 MOA performance. As noted by others, this is where the shooter is often going to reach his/her limit, no matter how good the equipment is.

This is my Savage M12 action with a Shilen barrel in 20VT.
[IMG][/IMG]

I've played with three different powders and three different bullets. On a given day I can do pretty well with any of them, including my fire form load below, shot at 100 yards:

[IMG][/IMG]

I'm proud of it - but not hardly a 1/4 MOA group.
Part of the issue becomes my ability to even resolve my aiming point with the optics I am using. Many times I have found that shooting at a longer rage will allow me to refine my point of aim, replicate it better if you will, so while the group may not tighten up, the MOA improves as shown with this 200 yard group, which is finally approaching 1/4 MOA, but still isn't there:

[IMG][/IMG]

I don't know if the Savage ACTION is capable of 1/4 MOA. I know that I'M not capable of 1/4 MOA - at least not consistently. Better optics. Use a full rest instead of just a front and rear bag. Lots of things I could do, but basically I just want a 300 yard gopher gun. If I (me, the shooter) can hold 1/2 MOA to 300 yards, I'll be happy as can be.

[Lessdrop]

No matter what it shoots it sure win a beauty contest any day!
Does shillen sell rifled blanks only or will they cut the chamber, thread, and leave long for headspace?

[Teancum1]

Shilen does drop-in barrels for Savage. You pick the caliber, barrel length and finish. They don't do fluting. They quoted me a six-month lead time back at the end of June. I received it in early August. Unfortunately, the end of the barrel was dinged when I got it - a couple of big nicks in it. No damage to the packaging. I called and e-mailed them. Can't say they were happy about it, but they didn't hassle me either. I sent it back and a little over two weeks later had the barrel. To this day I don't know if they were able to re-finish the crown or if they did a new barrel. I left that to their expertise and told them as long as I couldn't tell then I didn't care. I head-spaced it fairly snug on a virgin .221 Rem brass that was formed in a Redding .17 Mach IV form die - an Adam Bentley trick that is just about perfect for forming 20 VT brass. I have up to five firings on some cases now. Shoulder has moved less than .002 and have yet to even think about trimming.

The stock is a Boyd's thumbhole. It was one of the few aftermarket stocks available to fit the older 4.2 screw spacing. While it was a perfect drop-in fit, and finished pretty nicely, I hogged it out for a Devcon bedding job and sanded and sealed all the interior surfaces - including the vents. Also used Birchwood Casey "stock sheen" to give it a little finer finish - but for $100 I have no complaints at all about the Boyd's stocks.

No matter what it shoots it sure win a beauty contest any day!
Does shillen sell rifled blanks only or will they cut the chamber, thread, and leave long for headspace?

[davemuzz]

Yes! Let's see that "guarantee " in detailed writing! :-)

They will give you some blurb about it in writing……but it will cost you an additional $200.

[FW Conch]

Thanks Dave. But since I won't be spending the $5,000 or the $200, it's a moot point anyway. :-)

[davemuzz]

Thanks Dave. But since I won't be spending the $5,000 or the $200, it's a moot point anyway. :-)

Wha?….I though we could go together and get…like maybe a 2% discount if we bought two of 'em!!

[FW Conch]

;-(

[Nor Cal Mikie]

I'am thinking that the key word is "consistantly"! I've shot a few groups that measured in the 1s so I know it can be done. My best so far measured .110" and it could be covered with a dime and have room to spare.
As far as shooting five 5 shot groups? That's another different animal. The load that shoots good one day may not be as good the next day.
I made it a point to shoot 5 groups the other day. Nothing special with the ammo. Groups started off bigger than I wanted and got smaller as the rig warmed up. Came up with as average of .556". Not one of my better days. I'll keep after it till I see exactly what my rigs can do.
As far as shooting sage rats or P dogs? I've got the rigs capable of deadly accuracy. In a "compitition enviornment"? Well, that's another story. And, no use putting hair on my targets. The results were just not as good as I expected or was looking for. I'll keep trying!

[82boy]

Here is a target I shot in a match earlier this year, it is a 5 shoot 100 yard group.

Yes the gun has occasionally shot many small groups like this, and the gun has shoot .25 aggs in the past, But I would still not say even with that that the gun is a 1/4 MOA gun, yes it is capable, but it has also shot some big groups and big aggs. Last match I shot it in I aged a .385 well over 1/4 MOA. The fact is; to say a gun will consistently shoot 1/4 MOA or better is a fable.

[Teancum1]

Most of us varmint shooters are pretty proud of ourselves when we can brag about our groups being "covered by a dime." That dime comes pretty close to covering a 0.6" center-to-center group. Not quite the 1/4 MOA metric the original post was asking about - unless you are shooting that dime size group at something outside of 200 yards.

We blame it on the rifle. Or we blame it on the load. But generally, unless we are shooting from a machine rest, we usually have to blame it on ourselves.

I just look at the equipment used most often by the "winners" in BR competition. Yes, there are some competitors using Savage actions, and I am pretty sure that my Savage action isn't the weak link in my shooting chain. But the top shooters are trying to achieve and willing to PAY to eke out that that last quarter of an inch. Much more difficult to go from 0.5" to 0.25" than it is to go from 1.0" to 0.5". Until you get pretty darn good, you are going to have a hard time saying that your action is capable of 1/4 MOA. Issues with barrel, optics, bullets, load and most of all, the shooter, are going to have to resolved before you fuss too much with the action - or you take the short-cut and pay the money to buy the best of everything that you can possibly afford, so then you KNOW it is YOU and not the equipment.

[Nor Cal Mikie]

Like what Patrick says:
"To win in bench rest, you don't have to shoot small groups, you just can't shoot any big ones".
That says a whole lot. Bug holes for shooting varmints are one thing but a 25 shot string in compitition, well that's another story.
Never shot in compitition and my guess is, I probably wouldn't be that good. At least I'am trying.

[BillPa]

I'am thinking that the key word is "consistantly"!

I asked Bob Pease(RIP) one time what the secrete to accuracy is.

"Consistency. It doesn't matter is you do it wrong, just do it wrong the same way every shot"!

Bill

[LoneWolf]

I asked Bob Pease(RIP) one time what the secrete to accuracy is.

"Consistency. It doesn't matter is you do it wrong, just do it wrong the same way every shot"!

Bill

+1..... That's what I tell my marines with shooting. You may not do it right, but if you're consistant I can fix you!