Can a custom Savage shoot consistently under 0.25 MOA, or the action is the limit?

[earl39]

ROTFLMAO........ You guys are missing the point of the OP. Notice that he has only posted twice to this thread and both times he is declaring that a $1000 savage will not shoot with a $4500 custom. Well the answer to his post is sure it will. Same barrel, same ammo, and the action is just something to hold the barrel and bolt in place. The barrel and ammo is the deciding factor in his question. Now yall are just beating each other up.

[sharpshooter]

I got a hundred bucks says that none of you guys that posted in this thread have ever shot a .250" aggregate with any gun. When I say aggregate , I mean 5 - 5shot groups @ 100 yds. It's a lot tougher than you think. While I have won a few registered matches with a Savage based rifle, even the shooters with custom actions built guns have a hard time keeping aggs under .250" on certain days.
I don't feel handicapped at all using a Savage action and if I thought a custom would give me an edge, I'd already have one. The rest of the components are the same as on everyone else custom rigs, and as earl said, the action is just an ignition system.

[missed]

I got a hundred bucks says that none of you guys that posted in this thread have ever shot a .250" aggregate with any gun. When I say aggregate , I mean 5 - 5shot groups @ 100 yds. It's a lot tougher than you think. While I have won a few registered matches with a Savage based rifle, even the shooters with custom actions built guns have a hard time keeping aggs under .250" on certain days.
I don't feel handicapped at all using a Savage action and if I thought a custom would give me an edge, I'd already have one. The rest of the components are the same as on everyone else custom rigs, and as earl said, the action is just an ignition system.

**** I'll try!

So you will cut me another beautiful bolt body if I can pull it off?

[foxx]

I will try. I never even heard of an aggregate before. Sounds cool. I know it is tough. I agree 100% with Sharpshooter. Just don't see what it has to do with the fact I believe in Savage rifles.

BTW, I used to be a very good competitive target (not 3d) archer. Before I competed, I never knew how good I was, nor how difficult it was. There's a lot to it. Mentally, physically, mechanically... The shooting sports are great. Oftentimes misunderstood.

For example, indoor 20 yard archery... I could shoot 70-75 "x's" in a row (x's are about the size of a dime)... But I never actually shot a clean game of 60, even in practice. I might hit 20, then miss, and shoot another 39. I would then start a new "game", hit 40 more x's, then miss before shooting another 19. Putting together a game of 60 x's eluded forever. Actually, I know very few people that have done so.

I hope to get back into it someday.

[davemuzz]

I got a hundred bucks says that none of you guys that posted in this thread have ever shot a .250" aggregate with any gun. When I say aggregate , I mean 5 - 5shot groups @ 100 yds.

I'd say you would end up light by $100.

Dave

[foxx]

My money is on Dave. :)

But, my question is this: Have you actually done it, or are you confident you will, now that a challenge has been made? :)

Notice, Sharpshooter said he was willing to bet no one of us have actually done it. He did not say we couldn't if we tried :)

[davemuzz]

The 100 yard one hole groups with 5 shots are not that difficult if you handload. In fact, your hand loads can have a pretty large Standard Deviation and you can\will get a ragged hole at 100 yards. The difficult part comes into play when you try to achieve this at longer yardages. If your bullets are not seated with any concentricity, or any neck tension consistency, then your SD isn't going to be low…which is where you need it to be to get your longer ranges to have those tiny groups.

Of course, it all doesn't come down to just SD, but SD is a big part of it, and brass prep is a big part of obtaining a small SD.

But, I'm still willing to bet on that 5 shot group, 5 times at 100 yards. :)

Dave

[kevin1]

ROTFLMAO........ You guys are missing the point of the OP. Notice that he has only posted twice to this thread and both times he is declaring that a $1000 savage will not shoot with a $4500 custom. Well the answer to his post is sure it will. Same barrel, same ammo, and the action is just something to hold the barrel and bolt in place. The barrel and ammo is the deciding factor in his question. Now yall are just beating each other up.

Yes and no…
I think a rifle build with a shorter lock time will be inherently more accurate than a Savage action. So in theory, and everything else being the same, it will outshoot a Savage action.

However, from a practical point of view, the accuracy difference would be almost not noticeable for most people (all of you, and me included), as the shooter and the ammo (like others have said) play a bigger role in the overall scheme of things.
I’m a big fan of Savage and I’m planning to swap the barrel of my current rig (Savage 10FP in a B&C A2). But if I was an anal bench rest shooter, trying to get the maximum of accuracy and spending 30mn to load 1 round (perfect concentricity, etc…), I’m sure that I will choose a different action. But let’s face it, non of us here is an “anal bench rest shooter”.

So maybe a fair statement would be the following:
If all the parameters are optimum, a Savage action can shoot consistent 0.25MOA groups. But to get even better accuracy (like 0.12 MOA) , a different action will be required.

[davemuzz]

So maybe a fair statement would be the following:
If all the parameters are optimum, a Savage action can shoot consistent 0.25MOA groups. But to get even better accuracy (like 0.12 MOA) , a different action will be required.

Now that's a fair statement. I'd be putting my wallet away on a bet like that. I love accurate rifles and I love to putz with my Savages to get 'em there. It's just very satisfying. It doesn't make a difference to the groundhog that get's whacked by 'em or the whitetail that maybe the shot was off by 1.5". But to me, I like to go to the range and shoot sub MOA groups. Plus….ding metal plates at long distances….that brings out the kid in me too!!!

Dave

[wbm]

Where did I leave that last bag of gourmet popcorn?

[missed]

Now that's a fair statement. I'd be putting my wallet away on a bet like that. I love accurate rifles and I love to putz with my Savages to get 'em there. It's just very satisfying. It doesn't make a difference to the groundhog that get's whacked by 'em or the whitetail that maybe the shot was off by 1.5". But to me, I like to go to the range and shoot sub MOA groups. Plus….ding metal plates at long distances….that brings out the kid in me too!!!

Dave

That's true in my book too. It's like fast cars it takes x amount of money to go fast and it takes x squared amount of money to go faster. I did see a savage target action that was completely free floated and the barrel base was the mounting point and it was a 6xc bench rest gun that would consistently shoot in the 0.10 moa range, but that runs back into the big $$ this guy was a machinist and said he would have to have $5k plus to have that gun in your hands.

I want to load some ammo and go for the 5 shot one hole challenge bad! Hope I have enough 168's to do it!

[earl39]

Read again missed. It is 5 groups of 5 shots and the way it is scored is consecutive groups. You can't take the random 1/4 moa groups and say hey i did it. And that is why i shoot F-Class.....no group measurements just shooting for score. I have kept 5 under an inch at 300 yards. I think the rifle and load will do it on a regular basis but as for me......well even a blind hog finds an acorn once in a while.

This is one bet i recommend you don't take with Fred.

[pappy83]

My kid shoots on the Michigan FT/R team she is the only one using a Savage. She does very well at competitions and even had a Custom Build that she decided was not for her and went back to Savage. Her rifle does just as well as any of the team rifles she may not read wind as well yet but her rifle groups very well. it will shoot .2-.3's with the .308 barrel on all day this barrel is 26 inches long shooting 215 bergers. When we put the 20 inch 7mm saum barrel on it she will see .1's and .2's don't know why it shoots better with the saum barrel we use lapua brass with the 308 and Remington with the SAUM all other loading is the same scale, and trimmer wise. Her barrel on average is faster then the others with same load. I have seen the SAUM barrel shoot in the .2's at 200yds(5 shot groups) and do it often so yes a custom savage can shoot .25. Her rifle is a stock LRP with just a barrel she even uses the HS stock that is completely unmolested so I wouldn't even call hers a custom Savage as it has not truing, bedding, or trigger work.

[missed]

Oh I know it's 25 in one hole basically! It will be tough but I am gonna try

I want to try f class or silhouette or tactical rifle. Seems like matches are kinda space around here though

[Nor Cal Mikie]

I've never shot in a match but I've out shot my shooting buddy a few times if that counts. (and he's real hard to beat!!)

OK, lets see if I've got this right. Five 5 shot groups. All on the same target? Any time limit? Average of all 25 combined shots (5 targets) ? Just need to make sure I've got the rules correct.
Sounds like something to "really" work for. I'll have to try it before I'd bet on it but, it sounds like fun. The worst thing that can happen is shoot too big?

[J.Baker]

I have to agree with Fred on this one. Shooting five 5-shot record groups back-to-back that agg. 0.25" or less is a difficult task for anyone with any equipment no matter how much it cost - especially in a competition environment where it counts. Even I can shoot the occasional sub 1/4 MOA group, but to do it regularly - much less back to back five times in a row - that's not likely to happen anytime soon with me at the trigger.

Pleasure shooting when the pressure isn't on and you can cherry pick your conditions with no time restraints wouldn't count in my opinion. The groups would almost have to be shot in registered competition as that's what would validate them as legit (to the rest of us) for group size, range and that they all came from the same gun on the same day.

And frankly I think this whole thread is kind of a farce in the first place. You can't magically take the shooter, the ammunition, or the conditions out of the equation so this whole discussion is mute and meaningless in the grand scheme of things. We might as well be talking about leprechauns and unicorns for all the difference it would make.

[davemuzz]

Funny you should mention leprechauns and unicorns…because tomorrow that season happens to start!! There is a two limit per man on the little green guys…..but unlimited on the one-horn critters. And…no cheating via shooting your neighbors bull and cutting of one horn and "crying" I thought it was…..I though it was!!! Seen that one to many times. (Used it myself for a freezer of beef too!!!)

Dave

PS, leprechauns are really tough and not all that tasty. I usually just have 'em ground up and make jerky out of 'em.

[ABE_EOD]

I have a 12 BVSS that I have shot a .25 moawith hand loads. For the money I would put a dollar for dollar savage against any other. But it does take a shooter to get those groups. This is my opinion on the subject.

[Maztech89]

Nor Cal Mikie, there is 2 bad things that can happen trying for a sub .25" agg. First is run out of money trying everything you can think of from barrels to dies to wind flags. There is a whole lot to blame the big groups on other than "I" or "me" and that's a hard pill to swallow. This leads me to number 2. You can burn yourself out of the shooting and loading game with the constant disappointment and by making our fun hobby seem like work. Even if you do it once or five times, you will then want to do it more and more and it just isn't going to happen every day, not even for Tony Boyer.

Dave, I hope you can do it, would love to see a local guy putting up some good targets. Quick question, what do you consider acceptable SD for your loads. My last batch for 22-250 was doing 5 shot strings in the 9.2-11.4 numbers. By elbow feel my 6 time loaded Lapua brass isn't allowing the Matchkings to seat with same pressure. I ordered another batch an hour ago to start fresh again. Myself I'm happy with any SD below 20 for my hunting rifles. They will all do sub quarter minute, but I can't tell you when they or I will as I leave plenty to be desired in the skill department. I'm a 1/2-3/4 minute shooter with my moments of brilliance.

Fred, as I'm sure you are a man of your word what are the rules to ensure you aren't getting "took" on your bet. I know this is a forum of mostly stand up honest guys, but there is always that one.... Will it be like a yardage club for Varmint Hunters Club where another member must witness the sub 1/4" agg, notary stamp with 2 signatures on target or what?

-MAZ-

[foxx]

Maztech89, You sound like someone with valuable experience in shooting sports. #2 was what happened to me in archery. It's a shame, really, cuz I used to love it.

If I dare play Fred's attorney here... He offered a bet that it hadn't already been done by any of us. It looks like he would have won had we made that bet. :)

As I see it, he's off the hook already.

On the other hand, he might put -up a new gentleman's wager that none of us can do it still. If so, I'd sure like to watch it. Minimally, I'd like people to honestly report that they intend to try on a specific date and time before they make the claim next week that they just tried it, and did it. But each of us should be considered fore-warned... , b/c of the reasons you pointed out so eloquently above.
This is supposed to be fun. Competitive shooting is not for everyone, even if they are very skilled shooters.

[jonbearman]

I have several savage's with good to really good barrels.My favorite's in this order:
savage pta/5/35 Smc
savage .260 rem
savage .308
stevens 22-250 AI
stevens .223
savage 7-08
Come to think of it they all shoot real good but the top two really shine.

[davemuzz]

Dave, I hope you can do it, would love to see a local guy putting up some good targets. Quick question, what do you consider acceptable SD for your loads. My last batch for 22-250 was doing 5 shot strings in the 9.2-11.4 numbers. By elbow feel my 6 time loaded Lapua brass isn't allowing the Matchkings to seat with same pressure. I ordered another batch an hour ago to start fresh again. Myself I'm happy with any SD below 20 for my hunting rifles. They will all do sub quarter minute, but I can't tell you when they or I will as I leave plenty to be desired in the skill department. I'm a 1/2-3/4 minute shooter with my moments of brilliance.

I just looked at my excel spread sheet sheet and for my 140gr. 6.5's my SD's were 5 to 3. I don't believe I can get any better with any load. OTOH, shooting 123gr. Noslers I get 11 to 9. Getting rid of the brass neck bulge that will develop eventually in the brass is a key to obtaining consistency with brass shot more than 3 times. Several ways to do this, and my preferred method is to use an inside neck reamer followed by an outside neck clean up. Using comp. neck bushing dies and comp seating dies gives the most consistent bullet concentricity.

OTOH, for my .223 I think I could reload those with a rock and a C-clamp. And my Savage carbine would still give me one-hole groups at 100 yards. Honestly though, I had a T\C carbine that I sold and found that once I had the bullet\powder combo that the gun liked, I loaded the OAL to the SAMI spec and one hole groups were right there. That's what I really like about the .223. It's cheap, and easy to load for. (Kind of like me!!)

FWIW

Dave

[BoilerUP]

"90% of your horsepower for 10% of your money...10% of your horsepower for 90% of your money."

Also, 5 5-shot groups doesn't really tell us much about the *rifle's* capability. Sure you've got to have an accurate stick, but you've got to be a VERY skilled shooter too and the human is probably always the weakest link in the system, Savage or not.

[LoneWolf]

That's why bench rest shooters started building Rail gun style rigs. Too much relies on the shooter to be able to do it consistently 5 times in a row.

Sent from my HTCEVOV4G using Tapatalk 2

[Nor Cal Mikie]

IMHO, the best thing to do is shoot five 5 shot groups and see what you can do. From what Jim (Mr. Furious) said, when you post the results, he probably wouldn't believe you anyway if it wasn't in a registered match?? If you can achieve good groups, good for you. If your groups arn't that good? At least you tried.
I'll shoot the groups and see how good (or bad) I can do. The results will be for my own satisfaction and I won't care if anybody believes me or not. No excuses other than "I didn't do as well as I thought I could do".