"The Farther One Travels, The Less One Knows" Barrell / Reloading Questions

[Silvercrow1]

Thanks to this board- specifically the outstanding people that comprise it, I am shooting and shooting fairly well; I am reloading with some success (load development) and exploring m[SUP]ore and more. A GOOD THING in my estimation-but with more knowledge comes more questions.

I finally got a quality cleaning rod- Dewey SS in .22 cal. for my only centerfire, Savage 110 LA, .223, heavy barrel (26"). Early 1990s manufacture. I found, to my shock, that what I always thought was a 1:12 twist barrel is a 1:14 twist (!) The gun shoots nicely but can you folks tell me what the "high end" of bullet weight is for this twist? I read on another forum ONLY 55 and 50 Gr. bullets will shoot well out of this twist rate.

The last two cleanings I'm getting a LOT of copper fouling- evidenced by green on the patches. I'm using Hoppes 9 as I have for decades, same cotton patches- the only difference is the better rod and a more quality bore brush. Any explanation for more copper? Incidently- I am reloading .224 Hornady 55 Gr. SP and 50 Gr. V-max bullets only.

The last cleaning, I noted a possibly "chatter" mark on the rifling about 1.5 to 2" from the muzzle, on the "upper left" land. I'm pretty "anal" and am surprised I didn't notice it before. It doesn't look terrible- but I wonder if this may have been uncovered during my more meticulous cleaning? Its not a heavy gouge- a little "line" in that particular land. Any ideas?

Finally, someday I'm going to get a new gun, and probably a new barrel for this one. Does Savage make / sell a long shank .223 Rem. barrel in varmint or heavy contour? What is the process for buying a barrel from Savage?

Thanks for your patience folks. Just trying to learn and not worry to death in the meantime! BTW- the barrel shoots 3 round groups into .34xx" to (worst) .671x" at 100 yards (that's BEFORE subtracting bullet diameter) so I feel I've got a better than average shooter- but as distances increase and I gain skill, I want to have the best possible outcomes with my somewhat (!) limited monetary capabilities...THANKS!
Brian

[J.Baker]

1. Can't buy a barrel from Savage. Only way they'll sell you a barrel would be if you sent in your rifle and they installed it so they could proof test if before returning the gun. Even then, with how busy they are now, they probably wouldn't even want to do that unless it was under warranty.

2. There's no such thing as a long shank on a Savage. It's large or small shank, referring to the diameter of the threads. See this FAQ for a pic and more details on the differences.
http://www.savageshooters.com/conten...el-Shank-Sizes

3. Does the gun shoot good? If so don't worry about the small mark in the barrel. How it shoots is what matters, not how it looks.

4. Regarding the copper fouling, my guess is that the new jag or brush you got just offers a tighter fit and thus is doing a better job of cleaning than your old one. Hoppe's #9 isn't really designed for cutting copper, it's more a generic "do-all" general purpose bore cleaner. As such you might want to try something specifically designed for copper like Hoppe's #9 Benchrest Copper, Montana X-Treme Copper Killer, Sweet's, or Shooters Choice Copper.

[darkker]

Bullet WEIGHT means very slightly more than NOTHING when it comes to stability and twist rates, so get that out of your head. People who talk weight: 1) don't know chit. 2) are making a very generalized comment.
RPM is what stabilizes, and the LENGTH is what needs stabilizing, not the weight.
RPM is a function of both twist and velocity. No two barrels are created equal, but here is a calculator to get you started:
http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi
Look up your specific bullet from the tab on the left, then come back and fill in for your specifics.

[foxx]

Bullet WEIGHT means very slightly more than NOTHING when it comes to stability and twist rates, so get that out of your head. People who talk weight: 1) don't know chit. 2) are making a very generalized comment.
RPM is what stabilizes, and the LENGTH is what needs stabilizing, not the weight.
RPM is a function of both twist and velocity. No two barrels are created equal, but here is a calculator to get you started:
http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi
Look up your specific bullet from the tab on the left, then come back and fill in for your specifics.

Technically speaking, I am sure what you say about weight not being the issue, but rather, length is correct. However, I also believe that shooters often CORRECTLY identify various bullets by weight (as opposed to length), and , for practical purposes that is alright because heavier bullets are very often also longer because it is difficult to make a bullet heavier without also adding length, given the fact they are the same diameter to begin with. To say a slow twist rate barrel generally shoots lighter bullets better than the heavier variant of the same brand and design is not wrong. The fact they are heavier SIMPLY due to their longer length does not change the fact that they are different and indeed are intended to be shot in barrels of specific twist rates. A rose by any other name is still a rose. :)

[darkker]

You just proved my point about #2). A generalization only.
Any Barnes or Hornady gmx bullets are much longer than their contemporaries, because of materials used.
In 22-cal... The 77gr SMK is generally able to be stabilized in a 223 with a 9-twist. The 75gr A-max is generally troublesome. Why? Because the lighter Amax is much longer than the heavier SMK.

The flower with another name, could be because it isn't a rose at all.

Generalities can be useful for certain things, but they don't teach us what is truly happening.

[Silvercrow1]

1. Can't buy a barrel from Savage. Only way they'll sell you a barrel would be if you sent in your rifle and they installed it so they could proof test if before returning the gun. Even then, with how busy they are now, they probably wouldn't even want to do that unless it was under warranty.

2. There's no such thing as a long shank on a Savage. It's large or small shank, referring to the diameter of the threads. See this FAQ for a pic and more details on the differences.
http://www.savageshooters.com/conten...el-Shank-Sizes

3. Does the gun shoot good? If so don't worry about the small mark in the barrel. How it shoots is what matters, not how it looks.

4. Regarding the copper fouling, my guess is that the new jag or brush you got just offers a tighter fit and thus is doing a better job of cleaning than your old one. Hoppe's #9 isn't really designed for cutting copper, it's more a generic "do-all" general purpose bore cleaner. As such you might want to try something specifically designed for copper like Hoppe's #9 Benchrest Copper, Montana X-Treme Copper Killer, Sweet's, or Shooters Choice Copper.

THANKS! Yes- as it is right now the gun is a "better than average" shooter with half MOA and better groups at 100 yards. I guess I tend to worry about what hasnt happened yet...LOL. Also I was concerned about longer distance shooting- because of the SLOW twist rate- with less rmp/stability, will I or might I have trouble at say 300-400 yards?

YEAH, I MIS-SPOKE- I meant large shank. So...looks like when the time comes I'll need a McGowan or similar barrell, I suppose a 1:9 twist is a good "overall" rate. Not particularly interested in the heaviest bullets, but would be nice to stabilize 50 thru 60 grain or similar...Brian

[Silvercrow1]

Bullet WEIGHT means very slightly more than NOTHING when it comes to stability and twist rates, so get that out of your head. People who talk weight: 1) don't know chit. 2) are making a very generalized comment.
RPM is what stabilizes, and the LENGTH is what needs stabilizing, not the weight.
RPM is a function of both twist and velocity. No two barrels are created equal, but here is a calculator to get you started:
http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi
Look up your specific bullet from the tab on the left, then come back and fill in for your specifics.

Thanks for the calculator and the mini lesson on weight vs. length. Like is said below- being diameter is .224, to add weight you gotta add length, unless you are talking metallurgical components. I'm interested in this stuff- and am going to do some research on Barnes.

WHAT IS "SMK" please?

Brian

[JW]

Quote: WHAT IS "SMK" please?

Sierra match king bullet

[Silvercrow1]

Quote: WHAT IS "SMK" please?

Sierra match king bullet

Thanks JW! Brian

[foxx]

You just proved my point about #2). A generalization only.
Any Barnes or Hornady gmx bullets are much longer than their contemporaries, because of materials used.
In 22-cal... The 77gr SMK is generally able to be stabilized in a 223 with a 9-twist. The 75gr A-max is generally troublesome. Why? Because the lighter Amax is much longer than the heavier SMK.

The flower with another name, could be because it isn't a rose at all.

Generalities can be useful for certain things, but they don't teach us what is truly happening.

A ROSE by any other name is still a ROSE.

When identifying one particular Bullet such as 69 GR. Sierra HPBT-MATCH and another such as 53GR HPBT-MATCH, the heavier one is longer than the lighter one. I can safely state that someone who is having trouble getting accuracy out of his 1-12 twist barrel when using the longer bullet might try a shorter version of the same design might try the LIGHTER bullet even though the reason I recommend said lighter bullet is its length. Until bullet mfr's start identifying their products by length and shape, as opposed to weight and shape, that will continue.

darker, I get your point. It is noteworthy, for certain. However, saying someone "don't know chit" simply because he does not always specify WHY he makes a certain recommendation to a fellow shooter looking for advice on which bullet to use in his rifle is also overgeneralization on your part. Moreover, it is non productive and distracts from your otherwise worthy point.

[yobuck]

your sitting on the doorstep of the manufacturer of some of the very best bore cleaning products.
that being bore tec in telford. pay them a visit and get educated in that area.
talk to them about eliminator for copper removal. also ask about carbon which is as much an enemy as copper.

[Blitzfike]

Just in case you notice a degradation in accuracy after your more thorough cleaning, removing all the copper fouling isn't necessarily a good thing. Those of us who shoot from the bench have for decades included some fouling shots after cleaning to stabilize the accuracy of the bench guns. Too much can certainly be a bad thing, whether referring to cleaning or crud in the bore.. A happy medium works best for me in my experience.

[sniper15545]

Bottom line if it shot's under .5 moa leave it alone! Being a .223 your going to get a lot of rounds out of that barrel before you have any worries. Happy shooting.

[wbm]

Bottom line if it shoots under .5 moa leave it alone!

Now that is news you can use!

[darkker]

Crow,
RPM decay is very minimal compared to velocity at the distances you are talking about.
As long as you can get something stable at launch from your rifle, out to 400 will be fine.

[eddiesindian]

Just in case you notice a degradation in accuracy after your more thorough cleaning, removing all the copper fouling isn't necessarily a good thing. Those of us who shoot from the bench have for decades included some fouling shots after cleaning to stabilize the accuracy of the bench guns. Too much can certainly be a bad thing, whether referring to cleaning or crud in the bore.. A happy medium works best for me in my experience.

+1........

[Silvercrow1]

MAN, THANKS FOLKS! I did not realize that Bore-Tech was in Telford- good excuse to pay them a visit. Also I had heard that too much removal of...stuff...can be degrading. I've often read heated debates about .22LR shooters as to whether or not to even clean the bore. I don't think I could NOT clean my guns...just runs against my nature. Thanks Darrker-too, I'm new at this relatively speaking, and its good to know that a 1:14 will be good out to 400 yards +/-. Now all I gotta do is find a range that has that distance, join it and start shooting. I still like shooting at 100, but I'm doing well and want to stretch myself distance wise.

Thanks again all! Brian

[JCalhoun]

Crow,

The only way to know for sure is to experiment with some of the heavier bullets like the 62 and 69 gr match bullets from Nosler and Sierra.

[Silvercrow1]

Crow,

The only way to know for sure is to experiment with some of the heavier bullets like the 62 and 69 gr match bullets from Nosler and Sierra.

Hey JCalhoun-NOW that you mention that, I read somewhere that there is a company that will sell you small amounts of "sample" bullets to try in your gun, for a reasonable cost. I FORGET where I saw this info- any one know? Appreciate any leads- I'd love to experiment.

Brian

[BillPa]

I read somewhere that there is a company that will sell you small amounts of "sample" bullets to try in your gun, for a reasonable cost. I FORGET where I saw this info- any one know? Appreciate any leads- I'd love to experiment.

Brian

http://www.bulletsamples.com/

[Silvercrow1]

http://www.bulletsamples.com/

ALLRIGHT! Thanks Bill!

[Spectre236]

Great info - Thanks much Bill - Just a side thought might your nickname in another time have been "Grumpy"?

[BillPa]

Great info - Thanks much Bill - Just a side thought might your nickname in another time have been "Grumpy"?

No, but on occasion I'll sign my posts " The Grumpy Old Fart".


Oh BTW, if anyone belongs to a gun club or frequents a back street sleazy barroom ask around. Many times someone may have a bullet you want to try and will give you a few.

BTW, dress like your best attire came from the sale rack at Goodwill, they're feel bad for you and refuse to accept a dime for them!

Bill (aka; The Grumpy Old Fart)

[Silvercrow1]

LOL good info. Bill! BTW- my attire DOES come from Goodwill....and Ross...etc. Brian

[joeb33050]

Bullet WEIGHT means very slightly more than NOTHING when it comes to stability and twist rates, so get that out of your head. People who talk weight: 1) don't know chit. 2) are making a very generalized comment.
RPM is what stabilizes, and the LENGTH is what needs stabilizing, not the weight.
RPM is a function of both twist and velocity. No two barrels are created equal, but here is a calculator to get you started:
http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi
Look up your specific bullet from the tab on the left, then come back and fill in for your specifics.

Bullet weight means quite a bit more than nothing. Greenhill's formula included a correction for specific gravity, which is about the weight of the bullet. I'll send a copy of the original cite if anyone wants it.

The original Greenhill formula: TWIST = ((CD^2)/L)) * ((SG/10.9)^(1/2)) where
C = 150
D = bullet's diameter in inches
L = bullet's length in inches
SG = bullet's specific gravity (10.9 for lead-core bullets, which cancels out the second half of the equation)
Please excuse all the parenthesis, I'd rather be safe than...

The Dell, Powley and Miller twist calculators ALL include bullet weight.
Again, I'll provide cites on request.
Weight matters.