Pay for classifieds, really!

[stangfish]

....

There is...was something cozy about SS.com. I still enjoy the savage discussions and helping the new guys. I learn something on a regular basis from Bill, and Fred when he posts. On here way to much information has to be repeated day after day. Jim has a lot of the answers but Sticky's could be added and are a "Living source of data" Not really a big thing here. SS,com is a place I have choosen to hang and it has its own unique character. Love it or leave it.

[davemuzz]

It's a matter of principle. As the OP stated, and I have said several times, this is the only site I have been to that does this. Every one else charges the seller a fee.

You call it "principle", I would call it "Choice." To me, there is a huge difference.

However, one other thing that distimguishes most Savage owners from others is that they will buy the cheapest gun they can (Axis) and spend hundreds, if not thousands, upgrading it. Most people on this site are not happy with a stock weapon.

I'm going to call this flat out B\S. Most of the posters here either buy a new 10\110 action at a cost of $400 or more and build from there, or find a "donor" rifle that will cost at a minimum $300, and build it from there. While it's true there are some mod's that can be done to an Axis, these are minor.

OTOH, i've seen Marlin Lever owner's buy new Marlin 45-70's for $700 and send them away spending another $1,500 to turn them into 50 caliber lever guns. Buy a Ruger revolver and for sure add another $150 for a good trigger job. Want a 1911?...you can buy one for $400, and then customize it by adding another $1200 to it. You like a Smith 629 revolver? $600. Want the Model 29 PC? $1,000?--They both shoot 44 Magnum bullets, but the Performance Center will put them in a smaller group at 100 yards. (I know this as I have both)

But I don't know anyone who has dumped "thousands" into an axis.

"Most" people who are happy with a stock weapon have no interest in shooting one hole groups at 100, 200, or 300 yards either. As long as the rifle will kill a deer, groundhog, or other critter at their chosen range, then they are quite happy with the rifle.

Dave

[J.Baker]

First, before either pdog or Stang get upset over their posts being edited - I did it simply because I didn't want this to turn into a Savage Shooters v. whatever other site thread because it's #1 pointless and #2 it's an impossible argument to validate no matter what's being compared. It's something that should never have been brought up in the first place, and it's just as stupid as arguing Ford v. Chevy. v. Dodge. (and the first person to make a Ford v Chevy v Dodge post in an attempt to be funny will get a free 3-day vacation, you've been warned!).

Pdog is right though when he said whining about it isn't going to change anything. This has been the rule here for 7 years now and in that amount of time we've had maybe a handful of individuals who insisted on pissing and moaning about it. Doing so leads to one of two outcomes....either they accept it and move on or they continue complaining about it and I'll eventually get tired of listening to it and will eliminate the source of the problem from the site. It's as simple as that.

Anyone's welcome to come here. Whether you choose to purchase a membership is your own choice, we don't demand that you do, but if you want access to certain areas you'll have to so it boils down to how important those areas are to you. By the same token though, I expect you to respect my right to run this site however I see fit - after all, I built it, I own it, and I'm the one paying the bills to keep it here for everyone to enjoy (including you rgburrill).

And that, in the grand reality of things, is why we do the paid memberships. It's not to restrict access to the classifieds, it's not because we want you to pay to be able to read the articles, it's because we want as many people as possible who benefit from this site to help support it financially to ensure it will continue to be here.

The first 6 years we had a voluntary donation policy - those who wanted to could send a check or M/O for however much they wanted to help cover the bills. During that time less than ONE-TENTH of one percent elected to give a donation, yet those in that one-tenth of one percent often made substantial contributions (i.e. $150 to $200 every year).

Frankly, that pissed me off and I decided to do something about it. Why should a few have to foot the bill so the masses can enjoy what the site has to offer? The result was the paid membership system which limited access to certain areas of interest to get more people actively supporting the site and to have more people pay their fair share for something they enjoy rather than getting a free ride from a select few.

The other aspect of all this is that this has become a full-time job for me. Between the server and site maintenance, answering emails, doing reviews, writing articles, trying to sell advertising, sending out advertising renewal notices, etc. etc. I generally put in well over 40 hours a week doing site-related work. I think it's fairly safe to say that not a single one of you would show up for work tomorrow if your boss called you into his office this afternoon and decided that since Joe Schmoe down the street does what you do for free, he's decided he's not going to pay you anymore but still expects you to show up ever day and work just as hard as you always have for nothing. Nope...I highly doubt you'd show up the next morning - so why exactly is it that I should work my tail off year after year for free just to make an occasional squeaky wheel happy?



Now, regarding the sticky's thing....

We tried stickies for years and guess what....nobody ever bothered to read them so they still ended up asking the same questions over and over again. All of the material we used to have here on the forum as stickies is now either in the Savage FAQ's on the main page (free to access and there's a direct link to them atop every page of the site) or is in the Gunsmithing How-To's on the main page (paid members only). The reason for that move was twofold...first, as I previously stated nobody every bothered to read the stickies anyway, and second, I got tired of seeing the text and photo's from our how-to's being copied verbatim on other people's websites. I decided that if people were going to selfishly steal the important, useful information that we've collected here FROM our community members and FOR our community members then they're at least going to have to pay us for the right to do so. And I'm not talking about taking something they found or read here on our forum in a discussion and reposting it on another forum, I'm talking about taking a published FAQ sticky, complete with OUR photos and text word-for-word, and recreating that how-to on their website like they wrote it themselves. This is also why I now put our logo watermark on all the pictures included in all our articles.

Additionally, most of the information shared on the forum is piece-mealed together over 5-10 pages of posts which makes it almost impossible to promote anything useful to a Savage FAQ article on the main site. How many times over the years have I put up posts asking for people to submit articles or reviews, even offering free memberships to those who submit something? And how many such submissions have I received over the years? Less than a handful.

As for the "experts" not posting here, well....most of that boils right down to "its your own fault" as many of them used to. Many of those who actually have the decades of knowledge and experience with Savage's simply got tired of providing answers only to have everyone question said answers as if they were deliberately lying to them. So the highly experienced "experts" simply don't bother answering questions anymore....they have better things to do than argue with internet know-it-alls who have little to no real world experience in the area they want to debate. The "experts" have simply decided that they're more than happy to let you folks learn the hard way since you refuse to accept and heed the advice and knowledge of those who have gone before you.


Basically three things would need to happen that would go a long, long way towards helping to transform this forum and make it a much better/more informative and user-friendly community.

1. Sit back, be quiet and don't reply if you don't know EXACTLY what the problem is and know EXACTLY what the solution is.
Look at most any thread on this site where someone has a problem and you'll find several dozen replies saying "have you tried this?", "what about this?", "Ok, maybe it's this then". I swear, you read through most of these threads and it looks like the blind leading the drunk when it comes to technical advice. Just because you read something on the internet or it was what fixed one of your guns doesn't mean it's the end-all cure-all solution for all problems with Savage rifles. Watch and listen as those who actually know what they're talking about reply and you might just learn something. Why do you think I don't reply to 1/2 to 3/4 of the technical threads? It's because I know I don't have any useful/pertinent information to help resolve the issue at hand and I'm not going to waste the OP's time by throwing out wild guesses that will just leave them confused and/or chasing their tail.

Don't get me wrong, it's great that so many people want to jump in and help, but unless you know exactly what the problem is and exactly how to solve it you're just muddying the waters and causing more confusion than anything by offering up best guesses or blind suggestions.

2. People need to get more involved in submitting CONTENT to the site. By content I mean well written, detailed articles and reviews, not forum posts.
Stang mentioned the lack of stickies that results in a lot of repeated questions. So where's the member base stepping up and putting together quality, detailed posts with photo's depicting the differences or procedures? BillPA and Thomae are the only two members I can think of off-hand who in the last couple years have routinely gone out of their way to do this. They both do an excellent job and we've promoted several such posts of theirs to the How-To and Savage FAQ sections of the main site.

I will also say that we (the moderators) need to do a better job of looking out for and identifying topics of discussion that would make for a good FAQ or How-To article, and that's something I will address and work on with them in the staff area.

Looking at it from another angle, there are 15,000+ of you and only one of me. Even if I wanted to I simply can't do it all and/or know it all. You as a collective buy more different products and experience more different things in a year than I will in a lifetime. That's why it's imperative that you as a collective help contribute content to the site. Even if each and every one of you only offered up one suitable article or how-to or product review a year, that's 15,000+ per year. I'm lucky to be able to squeeze in 25-30 a year with everything else I have to do.

3. People need to quit being lazy and start doing for themselves rather than expecting others to do for them.
By this I mean people need to do their own research and try to find the answer themselves rather than just posting their question on the forum and expecting someone else to hold their hand and tell them everything they want to know. I don't know how many times I've seen a new question posed on the forum and just three threads below it on the list is another post asking the exact same question that's already been answered. The way I see it is if you're too busy to be bothered with trying to first find the answer yourself then it's clearly not something that's all that important to you and I shouldn't waste my time with it either.



Ok, I've said my fill....flame away!

[pdog2062]

well said,I noticed myself in there somewhere.I will go to the time-out corner now and think how I can improve my actions

[rgburrill]

a lot of stuff

Wow, just wow. I'll be quiet now.

[emmagator]

Well it's only been a short time since I've been paid and checking the classifieds. However, i think might see an issue with a lack of selection due to the same people listing and buying parts. Just my early observation.

[stangfish]

Ok, I've said my fill....flame away!

Actually a good post and I especially like the "flame away" offer. No need for that as I think this forum is better than that. Even if one disagrees, it is insight into how and why you operate on those particular issues. With one large edited out exception this is a decent place to hang.

[Apache]

Well Stang, You are sooooo right.

Once again I put my foot in my mouth. Having some personal issues I'm dealing with right and seem to be taking it out here. My apologies to all.....post will be deleted

[DanSavage]

I am proud to be a paid member on Savage Shooter's and plan on renewing every year, I brows much more than I post,,,, I guess I'm kind of like a "silent Bob". Unlike someone down South from me...cough,cough.

[snowgetter1]

I think this is now just members arguing with themselves. I think the OP bought a membership somewhere in the bowels of this thread maybe on page 2.

[nastynatesfish]

I think they take WIC & SNAP cards for payment here, too....

Inquire within.

LOL. that's awesome.

[Stockrex]

Mod nailed it, some of the members have the same mentality as my ex wife . U tell them xyz and they say that's bs, it is zyx, I can see why the experienced members are frustrated and don't post. Most online forums suffer from this.
I do appreciate members sharing their knowledge and others wanting to understand and learn.
I work with individuals who spent of their adult life working towards being an expert in their fields but even they don't consider themselves experts.
I will sit back and absorb all I can.

I like the for sale being a paid item. Without acccess I am not even tempted :-). The divorce nearly bankrupted me.

[pdog06]

I think enough has been said here. No sense in beating this dead horse. After all the op is now a paid member....lol for anyone else, you accepted the rules when you registered, and like it or not, this is one of those rules.