Like I mentioned in another thread, I very seriously reconsidering using heavy bullets in my new Savage Hog Hunter.
Because I live in Kalifornia, it is becoming almost mandatory to use copper bullets ... my question.
From everything I have read, when using solid copper bullets you drop the weight of your bullet down to increase velocity ...Is this what you guys have found out ?
Is the 130gr Barnes OK for a big hog (250-300lb range) or would I be better off with the Barnes 150gr ? Not that I'm going to see one that big, but just saying if I do.
Of the pigs I have shot, both were in the 135-150 yard range, and shot them with my Rem 22 inch barreled 30-06 ADL. Was using 165gr Bitter Root Bear Claw, recovered both bullets on far side just under skin, great bullet !
Will the 130gr or 150 give this kind of performance, or better ?
Thank you.
wll
It depends on what twist barrel you have. The faster the twist rate the better heavier bullets will stabalize. Yes you can get more velocity with a lighter bullet, but it may not perform as well as you would like it too.
I would probably stay with something a little heavier myself. I like high kinectic energy.
I have reloaded for a friend that used the 130 grain barnes tipped triple shock on 275 pound black bear. Bear was quartering away and bullet ended up buried in the far shoulder when removed it weighed 125 grains and looked mushroomed. Bear went 65yds that bullet was moving at approximately 3050fps out of a 20 inch barreled Precision Carbine. The Savage 1-10 barrels really like the 168 Barnes TTSX bullets also in my experience.
The Hog Hunter has a 1-10 twist, I just may go with the 150's, still not sure.Originally Posted by LoneWolf
Been reading everything I can get my hands on this AM.
In 30 minutes I go to my FFL and do paperwork on the gun as today it is arrives from distributor ;- )
wll
Nice! The 1-10 Twist tends to prefer 165gr and up from talking to a lot of the experienced guys around here. I've been using 168gr Match Factory ammo with a lot of success. I would like to see if I gain a little more consistancy beyond 650yds with some 175s down the road. I have a McGowen 26" 1-10twist in Varmint Contour for target/long range shooting. I don't think I would want to carry it through the woods, but in an open area I'd feel comfortable out to 500-600yds for varmint/coyotes.
Finished paperwork on Hog Hunter ;- )
Put a mic on the end of the barrel and it is .750 ... my Cooley muzzle break will fit exactly. Yes the gun is ugly and the stock is marginal, but for what it is, for me, and what I'll be using it for it is just fine !
Will put more $ in bank tomorrow so I can buy bullets and brass ;- )
wll
Wlleven,
Yes, and for a reason...
You drop weight with the BARNES bullets to keep higher velocities, due to their construction. They are not the same copper as is used in Traditional jackets. They are very soft, also said sticky. That is why they had a coating to reduce fouling, now have bands cut for the same purpose; reduce fouling and pressures.
As such Barnes bullets are heat treated, to make them a controlled-type expansion. That heat treating leaves them very tough, and therefore have a much higher operating velocity window. Soooo, if you start out slower, or are shooting very long distance, you need a higher velocity to ensure that they actually open.
That is where the "Man these things penetrate anything" comes from, shooting heavy bullets that impact below operational windows is pronounced FMJ.
As to the twist rate:
WEIGHT of any bullet only matters technically. What is important is the known LENGTH, it is all about RPM. Twist/velocity are what is important for RPM. I don't have the link handy, so google "JBM stability Calc". That will give you a page where you can look up bullet lengths, and then put in your given specifics(twist, atmosphere, etc) THAT will be a very good idea of what may or may not stabilize for you.
I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.
243 possibly a 260 might be what your really after.
130 gr barnes shoot good out of Savage 1-10 twist barrels. The two we use hover around .5-.6 if we do are part. Rifles are a hog hunter, and a Precision Carbine. They work very well on deer only problem we have had with them was when they were pushed to max in a 300 win mag bullet hit shoulder blew up and left shotgun like particles on the opposite inside shoulder, entrance wound was baseball size, I would say the bullet failed in that instance, deer was dead though.
No, with all do respect, the LAST thing in the world I want is another caliber. 25-06 is my fav for long range stuff, have 22-250's and 223's, use .44 lever guns and have a host of 45-70's, have a few 35 Whelen's to boot.
Don't need or want any 6mm's, to many calibers now.
This 308, my 30-06, 35 Whelen along with my 45-70's are my large game guns. My 44 lever guns are my carry guns and pack a punch for there size. My 223's etc, etc. are for the small stuff.
This rife, my 30-06 and my 35 Whelen will be loaded with Barnes as time goes on, as those will be the guns I hunt with living in kalifornia.
I will deal with the varmint rounds as time goes on !
wll
It's the length of the bullet that counts, not the weight. The 130 gr. Barnes is longer than a standard lead-and-copper bullet, so it may perform just as well accuracy-wise as the 150.
Wow the reasons here are all over the chart. I have spoken to Barnes people on numerous occasions about this and other issues.
First
You dont step down in weight to boost bullet speed. You CAN step down because the lighter Barnes bullet will penetrate better than a heavier lead based bullet, while fully mushroomed. The 130 will work great on the size pigs you mentioned, and no need to be concerned with it coming apart at the shoulder.
The bullet in the above example did NOT fail, in fact it performed well beyond its designed paramaters. Give Barnes a call and ask them whepat the suggested max impact velocity for that bullet is. Then find me ANY OTHER 130gr bulllet that will match what it did. The bullet was recovered from a dead animal, after nearly a 3600fps impact velocity.
The Savage 1-10 twist will do any 30 cal Barnes up to the 175gr LRX and maybe the 180grs.
Just remember to START them at least. 050" off the lands, and go farther from there. Closer and you will be disappointed.
Also note, in the Barnes manual you will need a factory crimp die for the 130 gr due to the short bearing surface.
Shoot any 165gr lead based bullet into a deer and you will be lucky to recover 60% of its weight. Even if 70% is recovered, the bullet only weighs about 116gr. The 130gr TTSX will retain 90-98% (when used properly) and still weigh more. THAT is why you CAN use a lighter bullet. You can use the 150 with the same results and no crimp die is needed.
Folks like to claim they dont expand and thats why they penetrate, but it opens to about. 6" diameter and blows right through. Both times I used mine they never took a step.
Get the Barnes manual and follow their directions on seating depth.
From a fellow Kalifornian.
Last edited by handirifle; 10-05-2013 at 12:41 AM.
Depending on where you live, in some areas it IS mandatory to use non lead. But remember there are also the Nosler Etip, Hornady GMX, and seems like one more that escapes me.
If Brown signs these bills it will be statewide.
yes I know ;- (
wll
Let me clarify I love barnes bullets, but the bullet that hit shoulder and blew up was not recovered only bits of it on inside shoulder, the example I gave of one staying together perfect was on a bear shot out of a .308. The 130 in the 300 wm failed period it was pushed to fast I will admit to that but there was nothing to recover but bits. Use a 168 barnes ttsx in a 300wm and I believe you have one of the best killing combos you can load, have seen many deer shot with this combo none went more then 30yds some shot at over 300yds. The 130 is great out of a .308 I was just letting people know not to make my same mistake and ask to much of it. The only instance I have seen of a barnes not opening was on a whitetail at over 600yds and it was a high lung shot it left pencil size holes in and out. We switched from .308 to 7mm saum loaded with berger 168vld hunters for those ranges and have not had a problem.
Well I placed an order today, got a set of dies, Lee, they will be fine for what I do. (as all my collection of dies were ruined because of a leaky storage facility)
Bought The Barnes 150gr ballistic tipped, as I really think that weight will suit my needs. Bought a bore snake too. Now its buying brass time, I think i will try to get once fired LC !
wll
130 gr Barnes and a stiff charge of W748 will flatten them quick!
"An armed society is a polite society"
"...shall not be infringed" What's the confusion?
Just bought 500 once fired LC, that should do me for a long while.
wll
To speak towards the discussion about what does or doesn't expand.
I encourage anyone to do a search for an article done by: Gary Sciuchetti, called "the best bullet". Was done a while back, but you can still find the image on StevesPages. SHOWS you expansion results at all velocities of a mountain of 30-call bullets. RELATIVELY speaking, Barnes do not expand as large as many others do, nor to they expand as well, nearly as slow. Does it matter? Depends, an individual call. But the operational window is faster than many others.
I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.
Make sure you clean the heck out the that barrel with a good copper cleaner! Schweets, boretec eliminator are my top go to solvents. Copper fouls the barrel rifling really bad! I didn't use a copper clean and just a regular cleaner and after 200 shots or so the rifling by the crown was completely filled in.
Great bullets otherwise.
Yea I fully understand the issues with Barnes' bullets, but no bullet performs well at all speeds. Shoot a soft core lead bullet at magnum speeds and the blow ups will never be recovered, not easily.
Barnes themselves will show you the different opening amounts at varying speeds, and at about 2100 on most. Many open well at 1800, some lower. You have to use the bullet to match the speed. Thats why I say the 130/300wm use was out of design parameters, so it wasnt aa failure. Thats like towing a 10k trailer behind a Camry and saying the brakes failed to do their job.
Given the magnums abilities for range I think the LRX's are better suited. They open all the way down to 1800 and will hold together at 3000.
Personally I have my '06 loaded with 168's. Love em. I also have 130's for my 308, will report on them when I score. I, too, want to use it on hogs. Currently have onlly gotten them with my recurve bow.
Thanks guys for all your help.
I'm excited about getting my loading supplies and going to town. Like I mentioned I bought the 150gr Barnes and I hope they are satisfactory for my use. If not then I will load them in my 30-06 and get 130's for the '08.
I have 9 days left on my waiting period, and it's killing me. My mounts should be in, I have the Leopold QRW rings,, the Cooley muzzle break will be in on Tuesday. I already have a Weaver 1-3x classic scope, which is perfect for my application with this rig.
I ordered a bore snake and a Allen butt pouch (I love those things).
I will sight in using some cheap ammo, till I'm ready to start setting her up for business.
Again, thank you all, this is a great forum, and if you have any more suggestions, I'm all ears ;- )
wll
My opinion is this.
Tipped Barnes bullets in general are real sledge hammers on hogs.
Since they slice and dice their way through and apparently cause massive hydraulic shock to the system, IMO
a lighter bullet say in the .25 SD range can act like a normal bullet in the .28-.3 SD range strictly as far as killing power.
I think a 130 gr TTSX is a good place to be with a 308.
If I were loading up 308 I would go to that bullet and have in the past only in 30-06 but the 150 will work too.
That said once you get TTSX bullets up to hyper speed like 3500+ they do some weird things. I loaded some 95 gr TTSX bullets in
270 win at just under 3700 FPS, shot a 80# pig and blew one entire ham off, not to be found. I think it just disintegrated.
If you want a real hog whacker round, one day get yourself a 338 federal barrel and load it up with 160 gr Barnes TTSX.
Would you believe that Gary's results map nicely into testing by others?
Also, that one can couple those results with conclusions drawn by archeologists trying to understand why mesolithic (5,000 years BC) arrowheads tended have particular sizes and that they haven't changed all that much even through modern times?
That can be done and the result is a description of the "Ideal Bullet Weight" for a rifle. As it happens, you will find that that 130 gr 'all copper' bullet is good for all but the truly monster hogs. It will likely have some use for all-aspect shots for the average weight ones too.
The government knows whats best for hunting ,dont they??
Willing to give back for what the sport has done for me!
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