Matchking as game-taker??

[thermaler]

OK--I know this gets into "ethical controversy land" but let me say from the get-go that I neither use nor advocate the use of target rounds for taking big game--but am intrigued to ask nonetheless and am interested what the collective group-think is.

I happen to know a professional hand-loader (meaning he does this for a living for match shooters, LE etc.) and he tells me he hunts with matchkings. He's been hunting probably longer than I've been alive--which is saying alot since I'm well north of 50.

His reasoning sounds absurdly simple. #1, he says the matchking is the most consistently accurate bullet he knows of across the wide range of calibers and ranges being used for; and therefore is the easiest to work up to a good load. and 2) He says he's DRT'd over 100 deer with it. When I asked about the problem of fragmentation--he says that's why he likes it--basically by fragmenting after impact 100% of the kinetic energy is absorbed by the tissue resulting in massive tissue destruction. We were talkin 6.5 caliber on up--so penetration and smashing through bone he says are not a problem.

[yobuck]

if i were going to be using standard cartriges for normal type hunting id be using standard hunting type bullets.
my father always used 180 gr. round nose bullets in his 3006. while i wont advocate using those theres certainly
nothing wrong with using good hunting bullets for most hunting situations.
for long range shooting however things like shape and bc become far more meaningfull.
virtualy all long range hunters use match grade bullets including sierra matchkings.
theres no argument as to their ability for killing animals. those who think otherwise simply havent used them.

[stangfish]

Sad thing is the game king and pro hunter are almost as accurate with jackets that are designed for hunting.

[rattfink]

If you asked the guys at Berger what makes their hunting bullet so darn good, they'd tell because it explodes inside the animals vitals, expending all of its energy. And that sounds like what your hand loading friend says of the Sierra's. Berger hunting bullets are the exact same thing as their match target bullets but with ever so slightly thicker walls.

[thermaler]

If you asked the guys at Berger what makes their hunting bullet so **** good, they'd tell because it explodes inside the animals vitals, expending all of its energy. And that sounds like what your hand loading friend says of the Sierra's. Berger hunting bullets are the exact same thing as their match target bullets but with ever so slightly thicker walls.

Funny enough--the same guy says bergers are the one bullet he won't waste time on--he says there's too much "voodoo" in getting them to behave consistently and predictably across a reasonable range of weapons--but maybe that's just bias.

[geargrinder]

Funny enough--the same guy says bergers are the one bullet he won't waste time on--he says there's too much "voodoo" in getting them to behave consistently and predictably across a reasonable range of weapons--but maybe that's just bias.

Bergers can be finicky because of the VLD's are very depth sensitive. Most prefer to be at the lands or jammed. With the length of them it can be tough to fit them in a standard length magazine.

Great bullets, but have a couple factors to work around when finding a load.

[yobuck]

well berger does state on the box which are and which arent (reccomended) for hunting.
how many of us have disected the bullets to know for sure they arent the same.
sierra does not say anything on their boxes. on some of the 500 round boxes they state
the bullet was designed for target shooting with custom rifles. but it dosent say not for hunting.

[geargrinder]

well berger does state on the box which are and which arent (reccomended) for hunting.
how many of us have disected the bullets to know for sure they arent the same.
sierra does not say anything on their boxes. on some of the 500 round boxes they state
the bullet was designed for target shooting with custom rifles. but it dosent say not for hunting.

Yes, Berger targets have a thicker jacket that hinders it's ability to radically expand in game. The hunting versions have a thinner jacket.

[earl39]

Berger hunting bullets are the exact same thing as their match target bullets but with ever so slightly thicker walls.

That is just backwards Rat. Berger redid the match bullets with a slightly thicker jacket due to complaints that some bullets were being lost in flight due to them coming apart. After much testing Berger found that some bullets would come apart in flight if pushed to the extreme and started making the match bullets with a heavier jacket. The bullets now marked as hunting are the same as the original match bullets which were not designed as hunting bullets but just seemed to work very well. As stated about the Matchkings, Berger also started out saying not to hunt with their TARGET bullet. It was the reports of many shooters having such good luck with them that led Berger to reexamine their bullets for hunting.
I have used Matchkings for deer hunting but after a number of deer have stopped due to the lack of expansion. The bullet does a lot of damage but for the most part it is due to a tumble such as fmj's do in soft tissue. Lapua Scenar bullets have exhibited the same non-expansion with a tumble effect for me also. If i was going to use a target bullet to deer hunt with it would be the original Berger which is now called a hunting bullet. The A-Max is a good cross between target and hunting. Not the absolute best at either but good at both. JMHO

[maxl]

Why not just use a bullet designed for hunting like the gameking. Very accurate and deadly and cheaper. Problem solved

[DanSavage]

I like the Hornady A-Max for it's target grade accuracy and for hunting. I've blown the deer's heart up with Hornady 168 hpbt match bullet's up to 500 yards. But I also get practice all summer long with the woodchucks LOL.

[thermaler]

I like the Hornady A-Max for it's target grade accuracy and for hunting. I've blown the deer's heart up with Hornady 168 hpbt match bullet's up to 500 yards. But I also get practice all summer long with the woodchucks LOL.

My bud said a-maxes were also a good choice and runner-up to the matchkings IHO. He's not a big fan of Nosler--but for some unknown reason I tend to shoot well with them in my hand-loads, so I continue to use them. Go figure.

[goinssr]

Nosler Ballistic Tips have been some of the most accurate bullets I've ever shot. And they are serious deer hammers!

[DanSavage]

Nosler Ballistic Tips have been some of the most accurate bullets I've ever shot. And they are serious deer hammers!

I agree, Nosler Ballistic tips are very accurate and a better all around hunting bullet, they have proven very accurate. The 165 Ballistic tip shot from .5" down to .2" 3 shot groups at 100 yards. The most accurate bullet in one of my .308 barrels is the Ballistic Silver Tip 168's and Varget. I don't shoot Nolser's much anymore because of the price.

I've got a bunch of 178 A-max's I'll try this deer season.

[Linebredrebel]

I agree, Nosler Ballistic tips are very accurate and a better all around hunting bullet, they have proven very accurate. The 165 Ballistic tip shot from .5" down to .2" 3 shot groups at 100 yards. The most accurate bullet in one of my .308 barrels is the Ballistic Silver Tip 168's and Varget. I don't shoot Nolser's much anymore because of the price.

I've got a bunch of 178 A-max's I'll try this deer season.

+1 for the Nosler Ballistic tip!

[GaCop]

nosler ballistic tips have been some of the most accurate bullets i've ever shot. And they are serious deer hammers!

amen!

[FW Conch]

Year before last, I got my buck with my 358Win, 225grn Sierra GK, @ 165yds, through & through, 1" exit hole. It knocked him off his feet and he never got up. No bloodshot meat-I ate right up to the hole. That is bullet performance with nothing left to be desired ;-)

[BoilerUP]

Deer aren't bulletproof, and if you can put a SMK where it needs to go it will certainly do the job.

But failures are likely more possible, especially if it gets into a shoulder.

The Amax is a better "match/hunting" bullet IMO, but most folks that say "Don't use match bullets" have probably never hunted with them to see their terminal effects, either.

Also, +whatever on the NBT..."deer bombs" just work.

[stomp442]

Being a long range hunter myself and having used all the bullets mentioned at one point or another I can honestly say the bergers provide the best accuracy and performance of any of them. The sierra game king is my second choice, a finer hunting bullet is hard to come by. The match kings work when put in the right place but throughout my bullet testing expansion was unreliable. Some would pencil through and others would expand violently much like a berger. The hornady Amax has also proven to be a solid performer at long range providing excellent ballistics and terminal performance. Noslers perform well on game as well but lack the b.c. I desire for long range work. I have found the b.c. on Nosler bullets to be highly exaggerated. Great bullets but not my pick for anything over 400 yards.

[Damol]

Burger also has there hybred line, they dont mind being jumped so loading to the lands is not needed.
Lots of guys on the Long Range Hunting Magazine on line forum use the Match Kings.
The Nosler Custom Competition is another choice, just have not heard anything about there use on game
as of yet.
So many great bullets out there for hunting, target, and those that cross the line between the two.
Good luck, and let us know what you pick and how it works out for you.

[thermaler]

I have pretty much all these bullets at my disposal--I was just wondering how much credence there was to the internal fragmentation/massive destruction theory--sounds pretty solid to me from what I gather here. Funny how I haven't heard many people step up and say anything nice about Barnes copper bullets which are supposedly known for their very significant mushrooming and very high weight retention.

[JASmith]

I have pretty much all these bullets at my disposal--I was just wondering how much credence there was to the internal fragmentation/massive destruction theory--sounds pretty solid to me from what I gather here. Funny how I haven't heard many people step up and say anything nice about Barnes copper bullets which are supposedly known for their very significant mushrooming and very high weight retention.

The key to reliably bringing an animal down in short order (<~10sec) is opening the large arteries near the heart or the heart itself. The thing doing the slice does not have to be a massive lance. One can look at hunting arrows used over the last 7,000 years and see that. In fact there was a paper published in a refereed archeology journal with those conclusions.

These primitive archers took the time needed to make good broadside shots. In the case of American Indians, they even waited until the buffalo had started to step forward so the ribs would separate enough to give the arrow a better chance to enter the thorax.

With rifles, one doesn't need much bullet to get through the rib cage and yes, the more fragments one gets inside the thorax, the better the chances of causing the animal to quickly faint by cutting enough blood vessels to cause massive loss of blood pressure, . When they work, these explosively fragmenting projectiles work very well. These bullets, however, don't always get into the vitals when the shots are taken at quartering angles and through large bones.

The lead-free expanding bullets do so well by expanding modestly in the first few inches and then keeping their weight and shape for the rest of the penetration even when going through bone. A key factor, and not one that is well-understood, is that the copper alloys used are far more ductile than lead and the strength can be controlled through modern metallurgy. This is why they tend to routinely make beautiful mushroom shapes.

You can read more about wound channels, bullet weights, construction, and killing power in this note: Ideal Bullet Weight. One of the conclusions to be drawn is that the lead-free expanding bullets seem to show about the same killing power as a bullet of classic design weighing half-again or more as much. That is one of the reasons they are becoming more popular.

[CharlieNC]

From my reading about the anatomy of killing, bullets like Barnes are not my choice. A hypodermic needle gives great penetration, a baseball delivers high energy, but I am convinced a large wound channel is the way to go. On that basis I like Bergers, and also no problem jumping a lot off the lands. Yes there are many opposing opinions on this topic!

[stomp442]

Lots of opinions indeed. I too personally like a bullet that will dump all of its energy into the animal rather than the ground behind it. As far as seating sensitivity goes for the Berger out off all my rifles only one has preferred the bullet just touching the lands. The rest are set .025 from the lands and shoot beautifully. I've not yet messed with the hybrids just because I have not ever had any trouble with the regular vld design.

[kelbro]

My hunting requirements have changed as I have aged. I have more than enough nice racks to my name and now meat is my goal. I don't want fragmentation. It messes up the meat. I also don't want to track them any more. I want them anchored on the spot or darned close to it so a good solid bullet is required.