Reply With Quotehmmm!
Measuring cartridge OAL to lands and will back off .020 to start. See following cartridge OAL dimensions for different bullets and take notice that the OAL's are nearly identical for the different bullets, but when measured with a comparator the dimensions are different. I rechecked these sizes about 10 times for each one, using different bullets from the box to arrive at an average and to make sure I was confident of the numbers.
I suspect that the OAL's are the same because the ogive designs happen to intersect the barrel ID at nearly the same location from the tip of the bullets. I suspect that the comparator dims are different because the ID of the comparator insert is slightly smaller than the barrel ID, and will arrive at different distances on the ogive from the tips as the ogive curvature intersects with that smaller diameter in a non coincidental fashion (unlike the barrel ID landing at the same spot). Is my reasoning sound and my conclusion correct? First time reloading here.
.223 savage 12.
69gr SMK
2.367 oal
1.983 comp
55gr blitz king
2.367 oal
1.972 comp
53gr vmax
2.363 oal
1.922 comp
i have never used a comparator so im ignorant as to their use. i just close the bolt on a partialy seated bullet
and work it out from there.
It would be interesting to measure just the bullet alone for OAL and distance to ogive using your comparator; then you could see if it all "adds up".
Bullet shapes and ogive locations are going to vary with different bullets. I have measured the chamber with each bullet. I have measured the bullet alone with my comparator also to confirm. You should see a SMK 175 & 168 right next to each other there is a huge difference in oal but the ogive location is the same.
I also soft seated each round, multiple times to check that way. I just can't believe the coincidence that the OAL would be the same for three totally different bullets, yet each bullet still touches the lands. Thanks for replies.
COAL only matters for your magazine. What tools are you using to measure with.
Last edited by stangfish; 08-17-2013 at 03:50 PM.
I don't understand why you can't believe it. You made the measurements. The #'s don't lie. What are you concerned about?
I feel the same way so I went with the numbers but since its my first time I wanted to ask. Today I tested 70 rounds of 69gr SMK and I reached two conclusions. First, 22.2gr appears to be the most accurate. Second, my trigger control sucks and I saw plenty of evidence of that. I shot two 5 shot groups for each load to get a good comparison and they were all different, ranging from about 1 1/2" or a bit worse, to as good as about 1/2" with the same load.Originally Posted by granite1
The last group of the day hardly hit the target circle at all, and that was the load I tried a different shooting technique. I put no pressure on the rifle and let it recoil freely and the group sucked. I have no cheek weld at all as the stock is low profile. The gun always seems to yank off to the left after each shot. I am a confused noob who needs better technique, but at least the loads worked well. I used mix brass brands for this, all shot from my gun previously. So there may be some variation there. I want consistent 1/2-3/4" groups at 100. Also, I am trying to figure out why I can be zeroed at 100 but the gun shoots a few inches to the left at 200. I really hope my scope isn't crooked.
first things first and that would be technique. learn to shoot well with a rimfire then move on.
Work on a bunch of dry firing to make sure your squeezing the trigger the same way every time. If the gun is jumping one way or the other think how your pulling the rifle or how your shoulders are. Cheek weld, I have made a Kydex riser for all my rifles so my head is in the same spot over and over again. The left at 200 how were the winds that day? I have Strelok ballistic calculator on my phone and tablet, tremendous help ranging and windage. The last time I shot there was enough wind that I was having to compensate almost 2 feet left at 400 yards.
That much? That could be it then for sure. I could have underestimated the wind and just ignored it. So, when pulling the trigger, should the gun recoil straight back? It seems to naturally go left every time. I thought it might be from the torsion from the bullet spinning or something.
Typically the bullet will be off in the direction which the muzzle recoils. Moon, what are you using for shooting rest? I just started shooting prone with bipod this year and have learned a lot of technique with the 223 to manage recoil and accuracy; decent success to extent that sighting in the 300WinMag was better control with the bipod than on the benchrest in the past. Very important to set up the rifle position using your front and rear rests so the scope is on the bullseye before you apply any muscle to absorb the recoil; the so called Natural Point of Aim (NPA); this is taught extensively and cannot be stressed too much!
There are some good pointers above with regards to shooting.
Wind does not just cause horizontal movement, if it is in you face or your back it can cause vertical stringing as well. On the high recoiling rifles if you loose site of your target after the shot then you may want to work on your positioning.
Last edited by stangfish; 08-18-2013 at 08:08 PM.
Moonbogg. Try to find a copy of the book:
"The Accurate Rifle", by the late Warren Page. This book (although older) is a classic and I learned a lot of benchrest techniques, reloading tips, rifle tips, etc.
I use these basic skills to help all the new shooters I teach (with my rifles) and the new shooters are thrilled to be be able to shoot this good.
Of course, it really, really helps to have a nice heavy varmint rifle in .17 HMR, .223, etc, so recoil is one less thing for them to 'worry about'. ha ha
Good, safe shooting to you and yours.....
ron
I use Caldwell sand bags in front and back. Just the standard, large, square shaped sand bag in front and little bunny ears in back. I'll check out the book mentioned in one of the replies here as well.
Regarding natural point of aim, I didn't know that was called something and related to technique. Now that you pointed that out, I recall doing that sometimes, and other times not.
Will having the front sling and bipod studs in the front of the stock cause an issue? It might be unstable since that's where it sits on the front bag?
Gun is savage 12 BTCSS in .223 with Nikon monarch 5-20x44 nikoplex.
Scope mount is DNZ single piece mount with extra wide rings (tactical version as they call it).
EDIT: Just watched a video of actual bench rest shooting. I almost spit my coffee upon realizing how clueless I am! I like huge learning curves though. Lots of room for growth.
Last edited by moonbogg; 08-19-2013 at 12:10 PM.
One of the best things I learned from Warren Page's book was:
Every once and a while before starting the trigger squeeze, relax your grip on the rifle and rear bag. If the scope moves off target, you are 'forcing' the gun in a certain direction. When you can get the rifle so steady that a relaxed grip will still be on target, you'll see a drop in your group size. It did for me, anyway!!!
good luck
ron
You should unscrew the swivel studs if they contact the rests; definite problem.
Here is my two cents worth to accurate shooting. First off Cheek Weld, Cheek weld, Cheek weld. I use a old mouse pad and cut out a section and duct tape it to my rifle. I do this until I can get a good cheek weld with my eyes closed. Open them and look through the scope, you should be perfectly aligned. Secondly make sure you have a full circle in the scope, and black area top, bottom, left or right will result in the bullet impacting opposite of it. (i.e. black on top, results in a low hit) Third, relax, get the crosshairs aligned and exhale, as you exhale focus on sight alignment and trigger squeeze the rest of your body should not exist. Then let the gun suprise you when it goes off.
Then you learn how to set parallax.Secondly make sure you have a full circle in the scope, and black area top, bottom, left or right will result in the bullet impacting opposite of it.
better yet install the rear stud up close to the pistol grip. it dosent affect carrying with a sling and is out of the way of the rear bag.
Thanks Stangfish, your comment prompted me to research this whole parallax thing, something I didn't fully understand but now I think I get the picture. Just for fun I am going to set my parallax as good as I can then shoot some groups without a full circle in the scope. Just to see what happens to my groups. Theroritically if my parallax is set right I should still hit the same spot.
^
So one way that I have seen it done is to point your scope into the blue sky(rifle unloaded). Using the eyepiece adjustment get the reticle as clear and focused as possible without concern of any background picture. Then place your scope on a target at the range you want to shoot. Turn the parallax (often misnamed side focus) untill your target is crisp as possible. Without any influences such as touching the rifle or the bench with any part of your body, slightly move your head up and down and sideways. The crosshair should remain still against the POI. If it moves even a half inch you are not adjusted correctly.
Last edited by stangfish; 08-29-2013 at 05:17 PM.
I have read through this entire post, and must say it is sporadic, and jumps around, and never addresses anything. Starting with the original post. When using a comparator, don't think of these numbers as gospel. The point behind a comparator is to have a reference point for your reloading. Use only one comparator, as reading will very from comparator to comparator. Also bullets may have several ogive measurement per box, it is not uncommon to find two or three different bullet lengths measuring from the ogive to the base in a box of 100 bullets. So with that said separate your bullets by ogive length, find where the lands are touching on the bullet (Not Jammed.) record this measurement for future measurement, and adjust from there.
On to everything else, as far as shooting technique, there are many different types of techniques, and each has it place. If your shooting from a bench, and shooting off of a rest, and rear bag, there is two basic shooting styles. 1 is free recoil, 2 is pinned against the rest. Depending of the balance of the rifle, and other fashions may dictate how the gun shoots best. Many Benchrest shooters will use both forms depending on the type of shooting they are doing. If they have a switchy wind day, where they are shooting fast, they may pin the rifle. If the day is predictable, and is a "trigger pull" contest, they will free recoil the rifle. Some guns will shoot better one way, and not shoot well the other. Also the way a gun recoils will tell if the rifle is in tune or not. I rifle that the load is in tune for the conditions will recoil smoothly back, a rifle that is out of tune will recoil and move all around in all different directions.
Warren Pages book is very dated, and has been out of print since the 1980's, The book was first printed in 1973, and I believe Warren died in 1977. Yes there is some good reference in the book, and good information, but some more modern books may be better suited for a newer shooter. I have friends that greatly admire Warren, and he was a great ledged of Benchrest, but there is better suited books out there. To go further Warren's book is hard to find, and copies can be very expensive. If your looking for a great book, that is a bi more modern, and is still in print, and can be obtained for little money, then look for my friends Glenn Newick's book "Ultimate in rifle accuracy." Glenn's book is also a bit dated as it was written in 1989, but it references the best material from Warren Pages book, and adds a more modern twist onto shooting. Glenn is presently writing a new book, and it may be out soon, but his first book is one I truly cherish. If your wanting to spend a bit more money, I would then recommend Mike Ratigan's, and Tony Boyer's books. Mikes book also has reference to Warren pages, and Glenn Newick's book, and is more modern, as it was written in 2007. Tony is the man of Benchrest, and his book is written for both hunting and Benchrest rifles. Tony's book was written in 2010. In all three of these book they address proper set up of scopes, Benchrest technique, and use of wind flags.
With all of this said, the best way to learn to shoot is to go out and experiment, don't rely on the internet to get this information. Remember when dealing with information it is worth what you pay for it. The best learning tool, is to find a shooting mentor. Find someone that shoots, well, and learn from them. There is a lot to accurate shooting, and all of it is critical. Once you understand this, you should easily be able to shoot 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch 100 yard 5 shoot groups all day long, with a out of box Savage rifle.
Last words, nothing replaces trigger time. You don't have to fire a lot of rounds. Sit behind the rest with the cross hairs on the target and dry fire the rifle, if it moves, there is your first problem. Now figure out why. Also pay attention to trigger pull, if your pulling the trigger, and you see the cross hairs walk away from the point of aim, you have another problem. Get comfortable behind the rifle, without this your never shoot good. If your not comfortable, figure out why, and find out how to get to the point where things feel right. Shooting with out some sort of wind flags is a total waste of time. They don't have to be expensive, a few pieces of surveyor's tape tied to a stick at a few different yardages is all that is needed. Watch for optical illusions, as this will wreck any chance of shooting a good group. What I mean is watch mirage, light conditions, and parallax. Last off nothing replaces experience behind the trigger.
Great replies, thank you. I will remove the swivel studs and also lighten the accutrigger pull weight. I'll try the dry firing for certain, because that just sounds like the perfect way to diagnose my trigger control issues since I know they are there. I do have a bit of good news however. You see, I was visually looking at the groups and didn't like them. I didn't bother to measure them, so just for fun I did measure them. There were a few that were out right poor, about 1 1/2 to 2" at the worst. But about half of them were 5/8", 3/4", 7/8" and also 1 1/4". So, with some work I feel I can shoot groups like that more consistently. Same batch of ammo with groups that vary that much leads me to suspect my shooting needs to be more consistent. I'll report back Sunday when I get back from the range. I found that the 53gr V-max shoots pretty well.
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