Problem with new rifle build....

[Onewolf]

The rifle I recently built is not yet performing to my expectations. This is the first rifle I have put together myself so I would like to confirm that I am not overlooking something obvious with the basic ‘hardware’ (as opposed to the more esoteric load development aspect). The new rifle uses a new Savage target repeater action, a McGowen 260 Rem 24” SS 1:8 barrel, and a Manners MCS-T5 stock.

The problem: When doing load development my final test for a new load is to shoot 10 shot groups at 300m before taking that load out to the LONG RANGE range (600-1000yds). The basic issue is that the new rifle is shooting 3-4” 10 shot groups at 300m whereas my old LRP (260 Rem) still reliably shoots 2” (or less) 10 shot groups at 300m.

Hardware checks I have performed:

• ‘GO’ gauge chambers fine
• ‘NO GO’ gauge will not chamber
• Barrel nut is torqued properly (Recoil lug and barrel nut are from Northland)
• One piece scope mount is securely fastened to receiver
• Scope rings are securely fastened to scope mount
• Scope is securely mounted to scope rings
• Scope (SWFA 12x SS) came off my LRP which still reliably shoots 1/2 to 2/3 MOA at 300meters
• Barreled action is securely fastened/torqued to the Manners stock

Are there any other potential ‘hardware’ issues I should check for?

I am shooting Sierra MatchKing 142 bullets, Lapua Rem 260 Brass, H-4350 powder, and CCI primers. I have done some load development with the new rifle and it looks like there are ‘good’ nodes around 42.5gr and another around 44.0gr of H-4350. The 44.0gr load was showing some flattening of the primers, but no sticky bolt. I shot 5 shot groups with 42.5 (@2770 FPS) and 44.0 (@2840 FPS) with the chronograph. I decided go with the 42.5gr load for now because it seems to provide the velocity I would like and the brass/barrel should last longer.

If the hardware is put together ok, then could it be just a ‘load’ issue? As in the barrel doesn’t like: SMK 142s? Hodgdon H-4350? Isn’t the SMK142 considered to be fairly reliable across most barrels? H-4350 seems to be the de facto standard for Rem 260 (although it is very hard to find these days).

What should my first steps be to diagnose this problem (hardware and/or load) ?

Thanks for any advice.

Doug

[goinssr]

3" -4" at 300 meters is not to be dismissed as a bad gun at all! That's good groups. But with that said your old LRP is likely good and broken in and the new one probably not. And this new rig may not like the loads that the old one did. Give it a while and let the new rifle find it's own path and see if those groups don't shrink.

[LoneWolf]

It is highly likely that between "break-in" and you getting used to the new rifle you may need to tweek your shooting style some. When shooting groups with my new build for the first time I was very excited and I know I didn't have the perfect set up for a more relaxed shooting position and like I said i was definitely excited. Take notes when you shoot on every little detail. I doubt that this is an under performing rifle.

[kingzero]

What were the groups like at 100?

It may be that the rifle needs to be broken in or the load tweaked. How far off the lands? Have you taken the 44 grn loads to 300 and if so did they group better? Those 142's might like the extra speed.

[CharlieNC]

If you have a different powder try that, but more importantly try other bullets. You can order small quantities (I think samplebullets.com) to screen without wasting money on those that don't suit your barrel. Find the right bullet first, then the powder type and amount, and finally distance from lands. Some barrels like almost anything, then others are very picky.

[nso123]

You might need to try more load development as well. I "fine tune" around the nodes to try and find the perfect load.

[JW]

If you have not tried it yet,
Every one of my rifles shoot the SMK bullets best at .010 to .025 off the lands
Do not have a 260 but this has held true with 6br, 6.5 x47 223 rem
If you are set on the bullet and can not get anything going, I would try different powder
Hope you get it work out
Jack

[teebirdhyzer]

I would take that 42.5 grain load and play withe seating depth. Maybe start at the lands, and back it up 5 or 10 thousandths at a time shooting 3 shot groups. Somewhere in there you will have a depth that will make a better group. Mine usually ends up being somewhere between 15 and 35 thousandths off the lands....probably no rhyme or reason for that, it just ends up that way alot for me.

[bootsmcguire]

Is your barrel and tang free-floating?

[stangfish]

To go along with boots thinking. When you make up the action screws and get them close to tight is there any spring or do the screws hit a "wall" when you snug them.

[Onewolf]

Thanks for all the replies. Here are some answers to questions asked.

Barrel definitely free floats. Not sure about tang. I will check.

Action screws have not hit "dead end". They have room to torque down more however they are already pretty tight.

I have shot around 200 rounds already so I _assume_ the barrel should be close to 'broken in' (but then I'm still a relative rifle newbie). I am far more comfortable behind the new rifle/stock/scope than the old LRP. Yet the LRP still shoots consistently much better.

I did a COL test with the SMK 142s and the result indicated they liked either little jump (2.850") or a lot of jump (2.800"). ???

I am going to try some different powders with the smk 142s. I have Imr-4350, Rl-17, win760, and h-4831sc. However I only have about 2 lbs of the rl-17 and I don't foresee the powder fairy dropping a 5lb jug of rl-17 in my lap anytime soon.

I have 1000 lapua scenar 139s and 1000 hornady 140 match boat-tails I can try. I also have a variety of other bullets in small quantities (berger vlds, a-max 140s, barnes mb 140s, etc) but I can't find them anywhere to purchase so I don't see the point in load testing them.

I would prefer not shooting out the barrel trying to find a good load. :-)

Again, thanks for all the advice/comments.

[243LPR]

McGowen was probably broken in by 30-40 rounds if not sooner due to the quality. How does it clean? If you just have powder residue and no copper it should be good. There are so many variables in handloads. I don't know how many loads you've tried with that bullet but if it won't shoot try something else.

[Onewolf]

McGowen was probably broken in by 30-40 rounds if not sooner due to the quality. How does it clean? If you just have powder residue and no copper it should be good. There are so many variables in handloads. I don't know how many loads you've tried with that bullet but if it won't shoot try something else.

When cleaning the barrel there is very little copper at this point (Brownish grey schmutz, no green).

The powder fairy dropped off 5 lbs of RL-17 at lunch so I am going to start with a powder load test of RL-17 and SMK 142s.

[stangfish]

One, you used the term "dead end" and I was curious if that was a response for my question. With a properly bedded action, as you begin to tighten the action screw it should go from being loose to being very tight in a fraction of the rotation of the screw. Any slow tensioning of the screw is indicative of action distortion. What would be happening in that scenario would be first the action would begin touching at one point and then the as the screw was turned it would be distorting the action to bring it into contact with the bedding. If it is bedded properly the action is making full contact and there is no distortion, the screw is turning with ease and in an 1/8th of a turn it is tight.

In the rotating equipment world this is called soft footing, were tightening a bolt brings to pieces of metal together that normaly would not mate together evenly as in the foot of a large electric motor to its base. One way to identify this is by the spring felt as the bolt is tightened.

This may not be the issue but you have the recipe for a very accurate rifle, You have an issue that will probably "stand out".

[Onewolf]

I checked the action screws and they are definitely at a "dead end". No further tightening is really possible.

I did some load testing today and I'm still lost.

All rounds were using SMK 142 bullets at COL of 2.85".

I tried H-4831SC and found that I didn't get the speed I want (2750FPS) until I was at the max (compressed) load and primers were being flattened. Hopefully the H-4831SC will perform better in the 28" 260AI barrel I have on order.

I also tried RL-17 and got much better speeds without flattening primers. In the morning session I did ladder tests with RL-17 and H-4831SC and I saw these speeds with RL-17:
39.4 = 2669 fps
39.8 = 2683 fps
40.2 = 2688 fps
40.6 = 2712 fps
41.0 = 2719 fps
41.4 = 2753 fps

The 40.6 to 41.4 range looked good on the ladder test so I went home and loaded 5 rounds each with 40.6, 40.9, 41.2, and 41.5 of RL-17.

At 200 meters. No wind. No mirage. Perfect conditions

40.6 AVG=2770 fps, ES=41, SD=13.4, 5 shot group = 3.86"
40.9 AVG=2785 fps, ES=20, SD=6.9, 5 shot group = 3.2" + 1 shot off paper!!
41.2 AVG=2804 fps, ES=30, SD=9.2, 5 shot group = 5.7" nice.... not
41.5 AVG=2778 fps, ES=22, SD=8.1, 5 shot group = 3.05"

These groups are horrendous for 200 meters and perfect conditions. The ES and SD look reasonable.

For whatever reason the chronograph speeds went up significantly between the morning (10:30 AM 84 deg) and the afternoon (3 PM 89 deg). I know RL-17 is more 'sensitive' than H-4350, but holy carp! 60 fps difference between 84 and 89 degrees? Something does not compute.

My Lapua Scenar 139 and Hornady 140 BT Match bullet orders should arrive early next week so I will be able to try some different bullets, but I am very doubtful that the problem is the bullets. It seems like just about every 6.5 rifle can shoot SMK 142s well.

I think something is 'not right' with the rifle but I don't have a clue what it is.

Argh.

I am tempted to install the LRP barrelled action into the new Manners stock and verify that I can still shoot about 1/2 MOA with it (instead of the crappy 1.5 MOA I am seeing with the new rifle).

Any advice is welcome.

[northlander]

Try a few different bullet weights. I know you have your mind set for certain bullet weights, if a lighter bullet works your barrel may not like the heavier bullets. Your parts break down states that you are using an 8 twist, have you checked the barrel with a tight patch to verify the twist rate? If you have what twist are you seeing?

Several 6.5 caliber shooters are doing very well with the 130 Bergers. You may want to try them.

Jim Briggs
NSS

[kingzero]

Try a few different bullet weights. I know you have your mind set for certain bullet weights, if a lighter bullet works your barrel may not like the heavier bullets. Your parts break down states that you are using an 8 twist, have you checked the barrel with a tight patch to verify the twist rate? If you have what twist are you seeing?

Several 6.5 caliber shooters are doing very well with the 130 Bergers. You may want to try them.

Jim Briggs
NSS

+1........try a different bullet.

[Onewolf]

Thanks for the quick replies.

One problem with the "try another bullet" option is that high BC 6.5mm bullets are very hard to find these days. I have been trying to find Berger VLD 130/140 match bullets for 6 months now. Nada. Same with Hornady A-MAX 140s. I was able to locate/order 1000 Lapua Scenar 139s (Powder Valley) and 1000 Hornady 140 match BT bullets (Palmetto State) last week and they should arrive early next week. I know the LRP will shoot those bullets fine having shot 360 Corbon factory ammo (Scenar 139 bullets, Lapua 260 rem brass) before I started reloading. I also got a 100 pack of the Hornady 140 Match BT which I loaded/shot with the LRP when I was initially doing load development for the LRP. The LRP seems to like everything!

I would love to try Berger VLD 130s, but I don't foresee the opportunity anytime soon.

In fact, if I can't get the new McGowen barrel to shoot 140 grain bullets ok (<1 moa), it's going on the scrap heap. I will do the test to verify the 1:8 twist on the barrel. Given my experience so far with McGowen, I wouldn't be too surprised if it's not 1:8.

Doug

[Onewolf]

I checked my 6.5 bullet stash and I have 80 Berger 130 match VLD bullets. I also checked and couldn't find them anywhere available online to order. I will probably perform some load testing with the 80 I have and if they work ok I will hope to find some I can order. However I still really hope the Scenar 139 or Hornady 140 bullets work.

I noticed in Litz that the Berger 130 has a very low 'stability coefficient' compared to the other bullets I have available for consideration.

[earl39]

www.thirdgenerationshootingsupply.com has .264 130 GR MATCH HUNTING VLD BERGER 100 CT in stock.

If you can put the lrp in the stock and try it. It could be a problem with the stock and with a known accuracy from the lrp it should show if the stock has a problem or go the other way and put this new action in the lrp stock and see how it shoots.

[pappy83]

That was going to be my next question have you put rifle in the HS LRP stock and tried. I had a manners stock and the aluminum bedding block HS shot better until manners was bedded. I have found that CBI Barrels need more then 40rds to be broke in so maybe your McGowan is the same in this instance. I almost gave up on a 223 barrel that would not shoot 55 and 62's for anything it was 1-9 twist, tried 77smk for fun and what do you know its one the most accurate 223 rifles I have been around it went from MOA to .2's but will only shoot 77's. I have tried the manners mini chassis also on a Remington it shot no better then the LTR stock the rifle came out of.

[Onewolf]

I have swapped the stocks and barreled actions but I have not had a chance to try shooting them yet. It probably won't be until Saturday until I can get to the range.

I notice that those Berger 130 VLD bullets at thirdgeneration are 26503 hunting bullets. When I asked previously about using the VLD hunting bullets instead of VLD match bullets I was told that I should stick with VLD match bullets because the hunting bullets have thinner jackets and are more prone to come apart when shot in the hot chamber/barrel of a match rifle.

I have avoided bedding the action in the Manners stock because I have never done it before and I would prefer not risk killing a $600 stock and a $500 (hard to find) action while I learn the ins/outs of bedding an action.

[earl39]

the hunting bullets are the original bullets. The match bullets are the new design that has a thicker jacket. This was done because a few shooters had a problem with the bullets coming apart in flight but for the most part they were pushing them as hard as their equipment would let them. You can check with Berger but i would suspect that with a straight 260, unless your have a really rough barrel, you will not have any problem with them coming apart. I shoot 123 Lapua"s in mine over a load of rl-19 and it shoots just fine. Also have a load worked up with 130 sgk's over IMR7383 surplus powder that shoots less than 1 moa.

[FW Conch]

Putting the LRP barreled action into the Manners stock is a great idea. Install it just like you did the new barreled action, and check it out. I'm not yet convinced you understand what stangfish is trying to get across to you about the action seating onto the stock. When it is "right", you can feel it when you set the barreled action before you even start to install the screws. With the action threads and the screw threads good and clean and everything lined up, when the screws are turned in, they should both make contact with the pillars, and then " reach their torque" 1/8th to 1/4 turn from contact with the pillars. "No slow and gradual tightening as the screws are turned in". This is "the " indication of a well bedded stock. Your rifle is not that far off. I feel your solution is something shuttle. Hope this helps :) ......Jim

[Onewolf]

The LRP barreled action does not quite free float in the Manners stock but I'm not sure how much difference that will make because the LRP didn't free float in the Stocky's laminated stock I tried, but it still shot 1/2-3/4 MOA.

The McGowen barreled action (Shilen #7LV contour) free floats nicely in the HS Precision/LRP stock.

I understand the theory that the action screws should not tighten gradually since the action should be resting/bedded on the pillars.

I measured the twist on the McGowen barrel using the cleaning rod/patch method and came up with approx 8.25 (which may actually be 8.0).

McGowen shipped the muzzle thread cap (ver 2.0) today, it will be interesting to finally shoot without the muzzle brake.

My order of 1000 Scenar 139s from Powder Valley was delivered today. Hopefully the McGowen barrel will like them. I know the LRP will love these bullets, but then the LRP has loved everything I have shot with it (Amax 140s, Scenar 139s, SMK 142s, SMK 140s, Berger VLD 140s, Berger VLD 130s, Barnes MB 140s). I also have 1000 Hornady 140 Match boat tails coming in later this week.

As I noted before, I will try the Berger 130VLDs in the McGowen barrel this weekend to see how they do (after I try the barrel/stock swap test with SMK 142s).