Caldwell lead sled or higher mag scope?

[trigger-finger]

These two statements are unrelated.

That's Deep...

[Nandy]

I understand not wanting to spend 3k in a rifle when you are starting which is fine. My "custom" 7mm rem mag is around 2k and shoots .2 at 100. Im sure it will do better with a better shooter. What are your expectations for your rifle as far as accuracy? Stock I will say you are looking at 1.5 to 1 inch if it is all right. Once you get that you will have to start upgrading to get that number to shrink. Pairing with an experience shooter will be best. I have got a lot of good info at the range talking to the guys that know what they are doing. You will find many wannabes that talk more than what they shoot. Look for the guys that are shooting and grouping good. Generally those are the guys that if willing to help will give you great info. Check with the range master, he generally knows who is bsing and who is real...
Good luck.

[trigger-finger]

Those are some big expensive rifles you have there Nandy and .2 MOA proves it is worth it.

I am still learning what I like and don't like in a rifle. Once I exceed the MOA of this rifle I will sell and buy a better one. I probably won't do 308 again, more likely 223 or 270 calibers with a heavier barrel and muzzle brake to reduce recoil.

Would like to get into competition shooting since I don't have many opportunities to hunt in CA. So would rather practice in an urban target environment simular to police or military.

[Nandy]

The 30-06 shoots CTBST right around 1/2" at 200 yds and that is a sporter barrel from Adams & Bennett (back when they did savage prefit) that I paid about $70 for it brand new. Back then their regular price were around $100. Never heard anything bad about their barrels... You dont have to break the bank...
The beauty of savage is that you can keep the old barrel (unless it is all shot out), get you a new barrel in the new cartridge that tickles your fancy, do the barrel change in your garage (no smith needed, we are here for you), bolthead change, mag change (if needed) and you have a new rifle. Want to go back to the .308 because whatever? take this new setting down, put the old one back and there you go... There is a table somewhere in this site where you can look at the boltheads by size and see which caliber is compatible with it and not even having to change the bolthead when switching barrels...
I went from 30-06 to 7mm rm and I thought I would never go back to 30-06. I got another action and set that one for the 30-06 because some how I was feeling "undressed" without it.... It's back to shoot clover leaves with a new bullet/load (cant get the CTSBT anywhere to try that old load). With that one action you can pretty much shot everything (single shot that is) under the sun that is standard shank. You might want to look in the future for a long action, that way you should be able to shoot your LA cartridges in that one and your SA cartridges on the action you have now and have better luck at having a repeater.
Savage are more than just a good cheap gun, they have potential to be turned in almost any bolt gun you like...
Good luck!

[Mach2]

that's deep...

lol!

[trigger-finger]

lol!

Just didn't know how to respond to that one Mach2. By the way I really like those Warne rings. Are the Maxima detachable rings any good? I would like to keep current 3-9x SFP add 6-25x Mil FFP. But have them be easily interchangeable.

Thinking of Weaver 4-20x50mm FFP.

[trigger-finger]

Just left range today. The method using the sled of aiming at o taking a shot. Continue to aim at o but move your reticles to be POI of you last shot. Set POA back to o should be pretty close if you didn't change you POA. Down side for me is I don't have tactical turrets, mine require using a nickle or screwdriver as its just a little recessed slot. So it's impossible to keep POA (look through the scope) and adjust sites at the same time.

Long sorry short The Nikon 3-9x40 kit scope is inadequate for my needs. Will upgrade to better scope.

[390fe]

I'm a firm believer in muzzle brakes - it sure helps on my Savage .308.

[Nandy]

Just left range today. The method using the sled of aiming at o taking a shot. Continue to aim at o but move your reticles to be POI of you last shot. Set POA back to o should be pretty close if you didn't change you POA. Down side for me is I don't have tactical turrets, mine require using a nickle or screwdriver as its just a little recessed slot. So it's impossible to keep POA (look through the scope) and adjust sites at the same time.

Long sorry short The Nikon 3-9x40 kit scope is inadequate for my needs. Will upgrade to better scope.

Why are you doing that to zero your scope? Lookt at your impact and make adjustments. Lets say your impact is 2 inches high and 1 inch to the right at 100 Yds then you move your adjustment 8 clicks down and 4 to the left.
Every click in that scope will move your impact 1/4" at 100 Yds so just do the math. I am sure that is the most effective and used method.

[Wogger]

Why are you doing that to zero your scope? Lookt at your impact and make adjustments. Lets say your impact is 2 inches high and 1 inch to the right at 100 Yds then you move your adjustment 8 clicks down and 4 to the left.
Every click in that scope will move your impact 1/4" at 100 Yds so just do the math. I am sure that is the most effective and used method.

+1 To This ^^^

Trying to hold the rifle after the shot and adjust the scope to the point of impact is not at all advised.

[trigger-finger]

I am no longer convinced my scopes clicks are that accurate. Also, I often shoot at different distances do the number of clicks also changes. I have eliminated human error with the sled. The method works great it showed me to realize accurately how many clicks gives me an inch of movement.

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[Wogger]

I am no longer convinced my scopes clicks are that accurate. Also, I often shoot at different distances do the number of clicks also changes. I have eliminated human error with the sled. The method works great it showed me to realize accurately how many clicks gives me an inch of movement.

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Everyone shoots different distances.
One click = 1/4" at 100 yards.
That doesn't mean that one click will always equal 1/4". You have to learn how your scope works and do the math.

One click =
1/8" at 50 yards
1/4" at 100 yards
1/2" at 200 yards
3/4" at 300 yards
1" at 400 yards
And so on...

[trigger-finger]

Everyone shoots different distances.
One click = 1/4" at 100 yards.
That doesn't mean that one click will always equal 1/4". You have to learn how your scope works and do the math.

One click =
1/8" at 50 yards
1/4" at 100 yards
1/2" at 200 yards
3/4" at 300 yards
1" at 400 yards
And so on...

I am much more or a visual person. Clicks and math while shooting are not intuitive to me. Would prefer having a smarter scope so the windage elevation and ranging can all be done through the scope without clicking anything. I.E G2MDR or btr-mil with MIL turrets.

Here is the situation. I was able to nail the target repeatedly by holding over and using the bottom of second bdc circle on reticle. When lining target at center of reticle I was shooting three inches low at 25 yards. How many clicks would that be? 1/16 at 25 yards right 48 clicks up. What happens with that 0 when I go back to shooting at 100 yards? Too much math for me to do while shooting looking for something more intuitive.

For me I prefer having all the information on screen BDC riticle falls short as it only does elevation. FFP would allow the measurements of reticle to be accurate at any zoom again eliminating more things to remember i.e. am I at the right zoom for reticle measurements to be 3.6" . I really only want to have to adjust turrets when the shot is beyond the limits of the reticles.

I'm sure everyone shoots and thinks differently. I'm more likely to use Kentucky windage as this would be more repeatable for me than remembering how many clicks I made and more adjustable on the fly. So I have decided my next scope must be MIL/MIL and FFP.

I really like this one.
http://www.bushnell.com/tactical/rif...-50mm-mil-dot#

[Mach2]

By the way I really like those Warne rings. Are the Maxima detachable rings any good? I would like to keep current 3-9x SFP add 6-25x Mil FFP. But have them be easily interchangeable.

Thinking of Weaver 4-20x50mm FFP.

I have used the detech rings. They are precise. Probably about the best made for retaining accuracy. They are very easy to detach as well.
A 50mm bell is pretty big. I have a 44m that does the job.

[trigger-finger]

I'm now wandering if I will really need two scopes. Will probably just go with the Warne permant 6 screw 30mm tactical on the Bushnell or Weaver and call it a day. Scope once zeroed is never coming off and I will never go back to the Nikon BDC SFP from Mil FFP, so no need to interchange.

Can I get anything for Nikon 3-9x40 BDC. Would let it go for$100 bucks....

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[Nandy]

Trigger, I feel for you. I am another of them visual guys. I can read documentation but it slowly turns in to blah, blah... Like you I rather get hands on. I want to help you but I am affraid I will become the blah, blah.... LOL!

If you have problem understanding moa and making adjustments you will have problem with mil as well. If you are going to shoot multiple distances you will have to do the math at some given time, period. You can have a ballistic computer do the math for you but you need to understand ballistic and how they work if you want to be good with your gun. To make it easier I get on paper and do my adjustments at 100 yds. At that distance every click of your scope will move the reticle 1/4 of an inch and it is very easy to relate the movements of your POI to the movement of your scope.
Lets supposed that we are shooting with a perfect load and all your shots are going in the same hole at 100 yds and that hole is 2 inches high and one inch to the left from the bullseye. That will mean that you will have to adjust your scope 8 clicks down and clicks 4 to the right. The closer your target is from 100 yads the less impact these click changes (perceived of course) will have. If you move the target at 50 yds (half the distance) the 8 clicks will not move your POI 2 inches but half which is just 1 inch. If you move to 200 yds (double the distance from 100 yds) the same 8 clicks will double the movement of your poi to 4 inches, 300 yds will be 6 inches, etc....
Get in paper at 100 yds, I have seen people in the range shooting at a 3'x3' cardboard to get in paper, do what you must, heck, if you go to a range with a range master I am sure he/she will be happy to help you or if too busy point out someone to help. I am sure that will get you in the ball.

Now, one thing that happens is that your scope might not track well. That is when you make an adjustment and the crosshairs does not accordingly. There are 2 things I was taught to do to help minimize this problems. one is to lightly tap the turrets with your screwdriver after makings adjustments. The other thing your can do is... picture your turrets adjustment as if they were plain screws. When you are tightening the turrets (clockwise) the turret is pushing the erector tube (where your scope crosshairs lives) against a spring so the movement tend to be correct all the time. Now when you move the turrets counterclockwise now the spring moves the erector as the turret screw recedes and then is when most of the tracking issues can occur. In those instances when I am moving the turrets counterclockwise I go past 4 clicks of my desired adjustment and then move back those 4 clicks. that will make the turrets move the erector tube (instead of the spring) which as I mention before tends to be true to the adjustments.

There are more things that can adversely affect the adjustment of the scope and not be the scope. The president of my lease and his son all they have in their guns is nikon pro-staff bdc. His son is a great shoot and kill deer at 100+ yds thru the season. I have seen him shoot on paper too and he has never have a problem with those scopes.

I wish you lived closer so we could spend some time in the range. I am no expert and do not have all the answers but I think I could help you get started...

[trigger-finger]

[QUOTE=Nandy;198508]Trigger, I feel for you. I am another of them visual guys. I can read documentation but it slowly turns in to blah, blah... Like you I rather get hands on. I want to help you but I am affraid I will become the blah, blah.... LOL! /QUOTE]

Thanks for the help Nandy. When I get the basic "equipment" that I'm happy with I will probably take a class or something. I'm sure I will figure it out just takes practice...

[pitsnipe]

trigger,

If I might lend some insight here. I have read through this post. And found myself saying out loud to MY PC (read that you are a computer guy and thought you could appreciate that) "this guy needs guidance" Not to be mistaken with help. But direction and clarity. You are making this a WHOLE lot more difficult on yourself. Trying to have the same POI as your POA at various distances inside/shorter than your "zero". I would choose a distance for a zero, any distance, just pick one. The industry "standard" is 100 yards. Shoot your chosen ammo at that distance and dial windage and elevation so that you hit (POI) where you aim (POA). And then leave it. Now, that said, if you purchase a "tactical" scope with "exposed" turrets, AND understand what value each click has at various distances then by all means, make an elevation adjustment for that 450 yard shot from that 100 yard zero and send it. Otherwise, learn what the sub tension value is of the MIL or MOA scales of the reticle (in the scope of your choice keeping in mind FFP and SFP limitations/characteristics) and hold over or under. Much like you would (or were trying to) do with the BDC reticle. But I would take some advice you received earlier and go to/join a gun range/club and get some good advice from those who can explain it to you in a way you can wrap your mind around.
Good luck and
GOOD SHOOTIN!

[trigger-finger]

Interesting thoughts and I appreciate your input. But, I actually don't need guidance or help. I need about $2000 to build a rifle combination which will keep me enthused. In short order I made many mistakes in my purchase.
1. Sport barrell in 308. Wish I had choosen bull barrel with muzzle break in 243 or 270.
2. Cheap scopes suck. Should have listened and never wasted my time buying a kit scope. U outgrew ut in less than 6 months.
3. Didn't know it when I first started but I really hate not having iron sights. But, to compensate I want a scope which has everything I need in tge reticle. I want to use holds, above, below lead and follow.
This is my well thoughtout preference which meets how my brain works best. Now what I could use is a loan to get the gear which meets my needs. I was never going to shoot 1000 yards targer with a kit scope with max 9x zoom. Probably not even accurately at 400 yards. BDC reticle or Nikon scopes are just not for me. Nightforce would probably keep me entertained.

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[Nandy]

I can understand wanting to upgrade, that is your decision and not necessarily wrong or right. After reading all your comments and questions in this thread I think you will have the same problems with the $2k ring as you have with the combo rig.

I actually don't need guidance or help.

Totally disagree but I will heed.

[Wogger]

I have to agree with Nandy here.
I don't mean to be a dick but you need to learn how to use the equipment you have before spending money on expensive ****. Put your rifle with your "cheap" scope in the hands of a competent rifleman and you'll soon see how capable it is. I can understand wanting cool stuff but it won't replace your lack of skill.
You need to learn the basics first.

My advice to you is this,

Zero your rifle for 100 yards and just shoot the rifle. Shoot at every distance you have access to without touching the scope, just hold over or hold under and learn the ballistics of your cartridge/rifle. Do this untill you can confidently hit your target at varying ranges with repeatability.

At this point you will have a reasonable understanding of bullet drop and wind drift. If not you need to shoot more. Then start playing with the scope so you can aim dead on and hit the target at varying ranges without hold overs. Don't bother adjusting the scope ever again for anything under 100 yards, the rifle will shoot pretty flat from 0 - 100 yards without adjustment. Only adjust for bullet drop and windage at longer ranges.

This should simplify things enough to keep you entertained untill you bring your skill level up.

[trigger-finger]

http://www.sniperforums.com/forum/ea...vel-ii-va.html

One of the requirements for courses I will take require an easily adjustable scope with target turrets. I feel my learning wont truly start until I get a scope capable of reaching my goal of shooting 1000+ yards. That scope should be based on the Mil-dot standard as I will be using the Mil-dot Master Calculator. I will also be using a rifle data book which also is based on Mil-dot specs.

The scope I currently have is not adequate for what I am trying to learn in terms of marksmanship and would not allow me to further my long-range shooting objective / education.

So at this point the help I would like is making a good investment in a scope which I will probably have long after this beginner rifle.

Requirements:
Mil-dot, FFP, parallax, 20-24x zoom, 1/10 mil turret adjustments, Tactical turrets, quality glass, max 50mm obj. lens, 30mm main tube.

Nice to have but not required:
illuminated reticle, G2 or BTR-MIL reticle, locking turrets, lens covers, sun shade.

You can't play basketball very well in boots you need the right tool for the job...

[tyler.woodard04]

Then the shots I make with my strikers out to 650 yards with my cheap Nikon's are luck? Your talking cheap ammo and guns and scopes but then talk 2k rigs and night force scopes but are shooting less than 100 yards right now? What happened to the oldtimmers using 4x scopes shooting woodchucks at crazy distances?

[tyler.woodard04]

Please don't take this as rude or a knock at you. What is your previous experiences with guns, rifles up to this point? Getting back to basics might help you out in the long run

[trigger-finger]

Hello Tyler,
Actually, I grew up shooting rifles but this is my first time owning one.
As I said above, I'm quite sure some people can consistently hit long range targets with low powered scopes or "iron sights"
Normal "basics" is not my goal. I am interested in "millitary basics" thus the desire to learn mil-dot. That is more interesting to me than the rifle itself. And yes I am aware millitary also teaches the use of iron sights.
I want a Bushnell Elite 6-24x50. I guess Savage shooters don't use mil-dot scopes. (By the way that was a joke).

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