New M10 shoots 3-4+ MOA with quality ammo?

[445gsd]

I have a Savage model 10, 308 “package” gun I purchased at Christmas. I was finally able to get it out to shoot for the first time on Father’s Day and had a miserable experience – 2 additional shooting sessions since have not been any better. The rifle will not shoot tighter than 3-4 MOA at 100 yards no matter what I do. This is my first Savage, which I deliberately purchased based on all of the great things I’ve heard about Savage out of the box accuracy. It has turned out to be the worst shooting firearm I’ve ever encountered – printing the worst groups (6+” inches at 100) with commercially produced 168 grain HPBT match ammo!


The rifle was purchased new in December and shipped in the following configuration: Accutrigger, non-Accustock black plastic stock, internal non-DBM magazine, and an entry level, 3-9 power Bushnell Scope. I have shot the rifle on 3 separate occasions, with 4 different types of ammo, 2 scopes (First scope used – Leupold Mark 4 4-14x40 LR/T , 2ndscope was the original Bushnell – in case the Leupold was faulty) and have cleaned bore prior to the first shooting session and after each. A detailed description of my efforts follows – but my question is, what am I missing? I don’t think anyone would consider the rifles performance remotely acceptable. I do not believe it is the stock, as I did some searching online after the 1st abysmal shooting session and found torque values and the order of action screw tightening posted online – which I completed for the 2nd shooting session and rechecked prior to the 3rd. I’ve also verified that the barrel is free floated along its entire length. I have been shooting the rifle off of a high end, adjustable rest, with the stock butt on a shooting/rifle sandbag, with the rifle placed on the front rest bag just forward of the barrel nut.


I may have been overly ambitious, but was hoping (based on reviews I read online) for around 1, to just under 1 MOA at 100 yards with quality ammo. I would consider 1.5 MOA OK and under 2 acceptable for an off the shelf, big-box store bolt gun. This rifle is not even close. As far as I go, I’m a former small-bore and NRA service rifle competitor (having shot at Camp Perry in years gone by) and I shoot rifles fairly well. While taking breaks to let the Savage cool between shots during the sighting in process, I would shoot sub MOA groups all day long with my 223 Encore pistol & Leupold scope – so I can’t see the rifles performance being something I’m causing.


Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated. I’d also welcome information on how good Savage is about resolving issues such as these – I plan on calling them this afternoon or tomorrow. Any advice on dealing with them would be appreciated as well. Not only is the rifle unacceptable, but I’ve spent several hours mounting/unmounting/remounting scopes, shooting, cleaning, traveling to/from range, not to mention the ~$90 bucks of ammo I’m out as well. I apologize in advance if it sounds like I am a complainer – but I’ve been hearing great things about Savage rifles for years and frankly I’m shocked by my experience. I realize that occasional “lemons” make it through any manufacturing process, but since the rifle was shot at the factory, I’m having trouble understanding how it slipped between the cracks.


Thanks for any help.


-Calvin


Here is a detailed breakdown of how I went about shooting the rifle.


Prior to initial shooting, I cleaned rifle bore with Hoppes #9, a nylon brush, and cotton patches – per instructions on Hoppes bottle.


Scope for first and second shooting sessions – a new Leupold Mark 4 4.5-14x40 LR/T scope. Mounted on Weaver one piece base with Burris 30mm Signature Zee rings – all screws (base and rings) torqued to manufacturers stated values with Wheeler FAT torque driver. Removed and remounted scope prior to 2nd shooting session – did this to verify tightness/torque of the base screws.


Shooting session #1 on 6/16/2013 – Commercially loaded 150 grain FMJBT ammo. Shot at private range, under cover, the scope was the Leupold. Bore sighted scope at 50 yards and was on paper – didn’t pay too much attention to group size and just wanted to get scope “in the ball park” before moving onto 100. Shot 3 shots at 50. Moved to 100, used 3 additional shots to get scope further tweaked and attempted to shoot a 3 shot group that measured around 8 inches! Let rifle cool. Attempted to shoot further 3 shot groups – none better than 3-4 inches. Assumed something was wrong and pulled the plug on session – left range after 20 shots.


Went home and cleaned rifle bore with Hoppes #9, nylon brush, and cotton patches – per instructions on Hoppes bottle. Also, carefully used Shooters Choice Copper Remover *exactly as instructed on the bottle* for 2 cycles. Did remove copper fouling and after 2nd cycle patches came out clean. Removed and remounted Leupold scope prior to 2nd shooting session – did this to verify tightness/torque of the base screws.


Shooting session #2 on 6/23/2013 – Commercially loaded 168 grain HPBT *match* ammo. Shot outdoors at 120 yards. Even though Scope had been removed and remounted, rifle was on paper at 120 yards and I fired 3-5 rounds to center scope and attempted to shoot 3 shot groups – none better than 4 inches – with 2 that were at least 6+! Shot through the box of the 20 match rounds and then tried some 150 grain ball. (10 more rounds) still 3-5 inch groups.


Went home and cleaned rifle bore with Hoppes #9, nylon brush, and cotton patches – per instructions on Hoppes bottle. Also, carefully used Shooters Choice Copper Remover *exactly as instructed on the bottle* for 2 cycles. Removed less copper (initial patches not as blue) than first cleaning. Removed Leupold scope and mounted Bushnell. Verified torque of the scope base screws while changing scopes.


Shooting session #3 on 7/6/2013 – Commercially loaded 147 grain ball. Back at covered range at 100 yards. Went through similar process as 6/16. Bore sighted at 50 and was “in the ball park with 5 rounds. Moved out to 100 and could not get a 3 shot group better than 3-4 inches with 25 additional rounds. Packed it up and left.

[teebirdhyzer]

there are instances like yours that pop up on here from time to time, and you will get alot of things to try out if you have not already gone through them. If it ends up that you did get a lemon (which I doubt) you can send it back to Savage for a replacement. I have 8 or 9 Savages and have shot many more, and none of them shoot anywhere near this bad even with the worst milsurp ammo we have. I think something is going on that can be easily fixed.

1. check the crown with a cottom swab or Qtip and make sure there are no nicks or burs.
2. if your action screws are torqued down snug, make sure one or both are not a little too long to snug the action and stock together. I've heard of action screws being a couple of threads too long, and not able to snug the stock/action together.
3. sounds like you have the bases, scope and barrel taken care of and on the right track those things.

[stangfish]

From this point forward until you get things ironed out only shoot the 165/168 or heavier class bullets.
Check to make sure the forward most base mounting screw is not too long.
Remove all of the screws and find the shortest one.
Put it in the front hole and torque it down. See if it moves. If so shorten until it no longer moves.
This is a problem with many aftermarket bases.
As mentioned by tree. Check the action screws. I would even go to the extent of pulling the action out and checking to make sure there is no problem with the stock. Once reassembled check the contact under the tang. It should be free floated.

Using quality ammo in the 168 gr range let someone else shoot it if you are still having issues

[445gsd]

Being new to Savage rifles, could someone explain the whole "float the tang" thing to me? I don't get it - I believe most rifles are bedded in the tang area. I realize that the tang is not "load bearing" on the Savage, but as part of the receiver, I'm not sure why it would be floated. If anything, I would think that this would allow the action to "rock" seesaw style in the action bedding, vs being fixed in place. I've seen it recommended in other threads so am not questioning that he practice helps, I'm just trying to understand how.

Thanks,

Calvin

[thomae]

If the two action screws are tight and the action is contacting the stock at only those two points, there will be no "see-sawing." If the tang is not floated, than the action sits on stock in the area of the front action screw and the tang (It's not free floating, so it is against the wood.) instead of the area around the rear action screw. When you tighten the rear action screw, you "bend" or at least institute bending stress on the action as it is "bowed" down by the pull of the rear action screw.

Does that make sense?

[Speedrat1]

To add on to what thomae told ya, make sure when you take the action out of the stock - check for the simple stuff, not sitting properly in the recoil grove etc. When you put it back in the stock make sure you set it back against the recoil lug and bring the front action screw up snug. You can torque things if you like, seems like the front should be around 50 inlb and the read around 35 in/lb. It's important you do not bring the rear screw up tight before the front one is at least snug. It won't sit in the stock properly otherwise.. Just as an parting shot though with you symptoms I'd really suspect the scope mounting being the problem.

Ron

[bootsmcguire]

I am just going to rattle off a few things to check. If any of these is already covered then we'll just say I am saying it again for good measure, as there is a lot of good thoughts in this thread for you to check.

1) DO NOT clean your barrel. Savages are dirty girls and many of them shoot much better if left alone uncleaned for even several hundred shots in some reported case. I clean mine only if accuracy starts to fall off, when breaking in a barrel, or when putting the rifle away for an extended period of time (say several months).

2) Float the Tang as Thomae said

3) Be sure your bases are tight. Many screws that come with aftermarket and sometimes factory installed bases are too long and don't hold the base tight at all.

4) Be sure the barrel is floating and not contacting the stock.

5) Seat the Recoil Lug by standing the gun on its butt and putting a bit of pressure down when tightening the action screws.

6) If you are shooting from a bipod try using a rest. If you are using a rest try moving the rest from the forearm of the stock to just in front of the action and see if that helps. Many of those package gun stocks are very very flimsy and bipods and sometimes pressure from rests and bags out towards the end of the stock will make the stock touch the barrel and also allow the barrel and action fly around during firing.

7) Inspect the crown. Use a jeweler's loupe if you can and inspect for burrs etc.. After firing a few rounds there should be a nice even powder blast pattern on the muzzle. If that pattern looks extremely off and not concentric then there is probably crown damage.

8) I can't imagine this is hardly possible, but is worth mentioning I guess. Check to see if your barrel nut is tight. I have ye tosee or hear of one leaving the factory loose, but there's always a first time.

I know I repeated some of the above suggestions, so sorry for being long winded. If all that checks out and it still doesn't shoot I'd give Savage a call and see what they say.