Using small shank Savage barrels in large shank actions…
The Savage Target action which I’m sure you are all aware comes threaded 1 1/8-20 (1.125 dia. OD) UN for the large shank barrels and the small shank barrels use 1 1/16-20 (1.050 dia. OD) UN. Savage has stated for quite a few years now that they are going to go exclusively with the large the shank barrel size for all their barrels in any caliber but so far have not with only the magnums & WSM’s having the 1.125-20 thread.
By and large small shank barrels are much easier to find OTS than the large shank barrels so I’m going to propose a way to fix the problem.
If you compare the thread dimensions in machinery’s handbook you will realize that there is a difference of .060 between the crest and root of both treads which means you could make a threaded sleeve with both a 1 1/8 UN external thread and a 1 1/16-20 UN internally threaded sleeve and have a wall thickness of .032 per side between root and crest. If both were cut in one set-up it would guaranty perfect concentricity with “0” run out. Using Ryerson’s etd 150, Fatigue Proof or similar high strength steel I would be confident it would work. Of course a stress analysis and proof testing would need to done to validate the numbers.
The sleeve would be installed with removable Loctite adhesive on the outside thread and screwed in a thou or so below the action’s face.
If there are any manufacturers out there that are reading this please feel free to run with the idea.
Savage builders please let me know what you think.
Regards, SSP
Last edited by single shot pop; 07-01-2013 at 11:21 PM.
I want to be able to use my large thread barrels in my small shank action!
Basicaly a helicoil but with matching thread pitch. Probably a very limited market currently. It's you money and I would buy one if I needed it. Currently my problem is the other way around.
Kick off your shoes. You should at least get to know us before doing market research.
Last edited by stangfish; 07-01-2013 at 11:34 PM.
Hello Strangfish,
I have "NO" intensions whatsoever of marketing anything please believe me that's why I made the statement "If there are any manufacturers out there that are reading this please feel free to run with the idea.
I only build things for myself no one else...
Thank you for your kind welcome.
Regards, SSP
Last edited by single shot pop; 07-01-2013 at 11:36 PM.
Been thinking about this and I think if this is a one or two off fix/work around, Then I would cut and thread OD piece that measured .002-.003 smaller than the small shank barrel threads. Measured with wires of coarse. I would then drill, turn and then cut your Adaptor/Bushing/Insert ID threads to a tight Class three fit with your aforementioned undersized gauge. Now with the undersize gauge screwed in partialy you can change your tool to an OD threading tool line up with the dummy shaft gauge threads and then adjust the position of the tool to cut in the middle of the ID thread peak and now your in buisness to cut a class 3 thread for the od. Chamfer part off. Heat the adaptor to 225 degrees thread it on with your insulated bearing gloves.
I'm Interested in someone elses ideas on setup. Oh and It is Stang-fish. Mustangs and fishin where my hobbies Raisin a family. Im kinda sensitive about my name. That Scope eye picks on me and I have kinda developed a complex.
MrF. Humor us and stick you foot in here.
Last edited by stangfish; 07-02-2013 at 12:00 AM.
A heat shrink fit is viable of course but risky if you screw up for some unforeseen reason and you don’t get it on all the way you just ruined a perfectly good barrel.
SSP
Ruined? LOL Just turn it down till you see the major diameter of the ID thread break through and it rolls right off. Or you could heat it up with propane and screw it off. But if you like thread locker over metal to metal it's your goat.
Last edited by stangfish; 07-02-2013 at 01:09 AM.
Stangfish,
I’ve posted simply an idea for people to run through their minds, if they feel it’s valid great if they don’t great.
I do not want to and will not contribute to turning this into a useless debate of who’s right or wrong it’s just so boring and completely counterproductive.
Have a good evening.
SSP
PS...if you check the post where I misspelled your name Stangfish I corrected my mistake, my apologies SSP.
OK lets party!Savage builders please let me know what you think.
Huh?I do not want to and will not contribute to turning this into a useless debate of who’s right or wrong it’s just so boring and completely counterproductive.
Last edited by stangfish; 07-02-2013 at 01:16 AM.
It's a bad idea all the way around.
"As long as there's lead in the air....there's still hope.."
+1, I don't recommend it.Originally Posted by sharpshooter
[B][SIZE=3]Dennis[/SIZE][/B]
Sorry, but I find this humorous.
You're oh so right Stangfish, so do I...
SSP. Please dont take any of this wrong. I may have come accross too whimsical at first and I apologize for that. I dont think any of us are attacking you. None of us know your background but the three posters that replied to this thread are machinst. At least two of us if i am not mistaken do it as a profession and at least one is a gunsmith. You asked for opinions and recieved them. If this is not what you wanted to hear consider us friends because friends won't lie to you. I have seen things done that I would have never done in a million years, and it worked. Your idea is doable. I think many would find it not optimal but i think it would work. It is kind of like having a wheel adaptor to put Chevy rims on a Ford in reality. Most people would just get themselves the correct rims.
Maybe some clarification is required for a better understanding of the idea.
-It makes no difference to me on what part the threaded sleeve is attach, barrel or action. But it must be removable so the action can used with either barrel shank size in the future.
-This idea/option is for the guys that don’t have a lathe at home to turn off the threads if the heat shrink goes wrong. The reason to use Loctite is only for fixing the threaded sleeve in position as the barrel is turned into the action. Removable Loctite is just that “removable”.
-The barrel has the hoop strength to contain the charge on ignition.
-You will have three bands of steel: barrel, sleeve & action.
-The trust loads are taker by the preloaded threads that have adequate section to withstand the shear loads.
-Once head space is set the barrel nut preloads the treads when proper torque is applied the Loctite has no function at all other than at assembly/disassembly.
-Lets say you have six small shank change barrels you will need six sleeves or remove the threaded sleeve from one barrel and put it on to the next. If you sleeve the action it requires only one sleeve no matter how many barrels you have.
-And finally I stipulated in the original post the modification would have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt by an FEA stress analysis and extensive proof testing to make sure it is safe.
SSP
Last edited by single shot pop; 07-02-2013 at 05:51 PM.
Stangfish,
I'm a retired mechanical/electrical design engineer that has spent the last 21 years designing flight simulators and major amusement rides such as Disney's Mission Space, Cyber Coaster, FAA GAT, hyperbaric chambers and others.
Before that I was a tool & die maker for 17 years.
I have a fully equipped machine shop with iron foundry. Besides building weapons I enjoy building live steam locomotives and RC UAV's.
Regards, SSP
It sounds as though you have a good understanding of what you want to do. I think it works. I am still confused on a couple of items but after rereading all of your post and their context it seems as though you are hoping someone would manufacture this product and that you feel others might find it useful. You may be right.
If I can offer a hypothetical observation.
The stress analasys would add cost to the manufacture but cover liability. The analysis would be meaningless without a QC program in a court of law. That requirment alone would probably force you into a quality control program with records and mill certs maintained for the life of the LLC. I'm just not convinced there is sufficient market to justify that cost. Look how many Savage Axis rifles had to be sold with 20% of the owners screaming for an aftermarket stock before someone decided to make one.
Good observations Stangfish,
I have a 3D CAD software system at home with basic FEA which I use to design my own projects and to me it is essential for more sophisticated design work. Today a basic decent CAD package can range from $300.00 to $5000.00 or more depending sophistication of the software. Any industry that wants to survive has got to have that capability today.
Any company that designs and builds highly stressed components like firearms better have FEA capabilities for the company’s health and wellbeing or they won’t be in business for long in today’s litigation happy sociality.
The main thing that is required for manufactures is to prove in a court of law that they exercised “due diligence” in the development of their product. Believe me I’ve been there with Disney and it is no fun.
QC goes hand & hand with engineering, manufacturing and purchasing. It doesn’t work if all four aren’t working together. When I buy material for highly stressed components that I’m designing and building I always ask for mill certs at minimal no additional cost. If they appreciate my return business they better supply them or I’ll find someone that will. I sure don't want any junk steel from whomever!
I always pull for the guys that are not as fortunate as I am and others to have our own complete metal working shops at home. That’s why I posted the idea to see if people had interest and hopefully a small manufacturer was listing. I could go down my cellar now and fire up my Sheldon lathe and do one up today but it isn’t for me it’s for the other members that don’t have the facilities that I do.
Stangfish you are absolutely correct there may not be enough of a market for it but it sure would be nice if people didn’t have the hassle of trying to find a new barrel in the thread size they need for their build.
Maybe the real answer is for all of us to kick Savage in the ass to make them standardize the large shank across their product line.
Thank you for your replies; I greatly enjoyed the dialog…
Kind regards, SSP
I’ve posted simply an idea for people to run through their minds, if they feel it’s valid great if they don’t great.Totally agree on both quotes.Any company that designs and builds highly stressed components like firearms better have FEA capabilities for the company’s health and wellbeing or they won’t be in business for long in today’s litigation happy sociality.
The main thing that is required for manufactures is to prove in a court of law that they exercised “due diligence” in the development of their product. Believe me I’ve been there with Disney and it is no fun.
QC goes hand & hand with engineering, manufacturing and purchasing. It doesn’t work if all four aren’t working together. When I buy material for highly stressed components that I’m designing and building I always ask for mill certs at minimal no additional cost. If they appreciate my return business they better supply them or I’ll find someone that will. I sure don't want any junk steel from whomever!
[B][SIZE=3]Dennis[/SIZE][/B]
Thank you Dennis that means a great deal to me, much appreciated...
Best regards, SSP
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