Snow is deep- I just had to shoot the Nitrided 300 RUM

[358Hammer]

WE got 12-18" of fresh powder the past 30 hours and again another foot of powder the evening after this photo was taken. The only way I can shoot during the winter is crash through the headlight deep burm the snow plow leaves along the road with the 4-wheel drive and make it down to the beach where the tide washes a place to shoot.

Left to right: Factory 19" 300 Rum, Benchmark 338 WSM and the one I have been waiting for. 6.5WSM. I shot the 6.5 before sending all these barrels off and recorded the velocities. The average velocity gain for the 120 TSX and Rel 17 powder 200fps or 3450fps. Yes that means before Nitriding that 19" 3 groove Benchmark barrel shot the same bullet at 3250fps.

The Factory 300 RUM barrel was most impressive! The bottom left target is the 168gr TSX and the bottom right was the 165 Accubond, both are 3200+fps from the Nitrided factory barrel. The 180 Accubond shot one target above the top right target and was 3100+fps and 3 shots at 1". That bolt lift quite stiff so I have to change thoings up a bit.

Overview: I have 9 Nitrided barrels now and every one of them shoots exactly like what is seen in the picture. I am not in business and that which I do is for myself and friends that also must deal with the harshest climate there is. SOme have said that Nitriding hurts accuracy. Picture is for real and they have never had a barrel nitrided, EVER! Give John a call @ 763-439-4867 if you want to piggyback on my next load. Actually I have one load left to do and I am done. If he charges you more than $45. give me a shout and you can just pigg back with me! If I know you that is. The first guy I was using charged $85. and it took me 4 months and a lot of harrassing to get my barrels and actions back. Both Chromemoly and stainless turn out the same rich blue black color.


[img width=600 height=450]http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk460/emeraldislandlover/002-2.jpg[/img]

[img width=600 height=450]http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk460/emeraldislandlover/001-5.jpg[/img]

Neal

[Big Smitty]

Can you give some more detail on the nitriding process. It sounds like you are doing the barrels and the actions, bolts and other parts also? Sounds like it is reasonable from a price standpoint. Is it similar to parkerizing? I have 2 110 rifles that I just picked up and I am re rebuilding into different calibers and the finishes need to be redone (older rifles). I was thinking about a Robar finish, but it is expensive. Any close up pics would be appreciated along with how durable the finish is. Thanks!

[358Hammer]

[img width=600 height=449]http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk460/emeraldislandlover/001-1.jpg[/img]

Nitriding is inexpensive to date. However I found some are getting greedy even though there isn't much involved in the process because it is slowly becoming popular. Really bugs me when this happens and It took me months to replace the other person.

1. Salt bath at 1200+ degrees. Oil bath at 750 twice. First time you have a white gray finish. 2nd time gets the luxury deep blue black color much like a $400. blue job.
2. Military did a 500 hour salt spray test on the finish without any indication of corrosion.
3. military ran ferratic Nitride head to head with chrome and the Chrome started chipping off at 15,000 rounds down the barrels. Nitride no sign of any wear. Many barrels at 60,000 rounds and still working great (223)
4. Has a r hardness of 70 which means that neither a file or a hacksaw will touch the hardess.
5. Hardness is only .003-.004 deep so the integrity of the material is still intact.
6. Self lubricating: On skinny little hunting barrels I have only shot 3 shot groups because of heat. I can now shoot five shots through those skinny little barrels if I want as the barrels stay cooler.

7. I can add powder if I want but for the most part I shoot the same known accurate load from a none treated barrel through a Nitrided barrel and gain 100-300fps velocity without adding powder.. Titanium Nitride is a different product and one will actually loose velocity.

Neal

[hcpyro13]

I'm interested in this for my 260ai barrel when I get it back from McGowen, looks like there are no drawbacks and I like the color to boot!

-Jake

[Stephenthesuave]

Neal, how soon before you send your next batch? I'm interested in getting my new 110 done. Do you have the bolt and other small parts done? What about rings and bases? I would disassemble everything, of course. Any issues with a barreled action vs removing the barrel?

Thanks for any info, I moved to Alaska and the weather is just too hard on a bluer finish. I am interested in piggy backing with your order or just sending mine on it's own, along with my buddy's 870. Whatever works for all involved.

Stephen

[358Hammer]

1. This is not a coating of any kind.

2. One must be conscious of the metal to be treated.

3. Precision materials like springs,triggers,bolt parts that should not be heated are not. One must take all your own stuff apart and be aware that Savage does not stress relieve barrels or Actions. I had nicely fitted barreled actions that need to have the stock re-worked after the treatment as the bolts were now tight in the bolt holes.

4. I won't advise on bolts and bolt bodies. Speak with John and see what he advises as far as bolt parts. He did tell me that this next run was going to be Moly parts only. No stainless. POINT: One does not need a stainless barrel as they do typically last longer than Moly barrels. This treatment does that eact same thing to both stainless and Moly. In the next week or two the next batch is to be done.

Think about a 260 Rem book ballistics, add 200fps velocity with the Nitride treatment to rifle length barrels and what does one get. Yea the problem is the guy doing the same treatment to a 264 Win Mag just went back our front with velocity.

Neal

[Big Smitty]

Thanks for the great information, I am going to get both of my rifles done. This may be a crazy question, but here goes... If the bolt and trigger group were removed could the barreled action just be nitrided intact? Not sure this makes sense since it might be impossible to seperate the barrel nut and then the barrel from the action due to the stress releif issue you mentioned. I would send the bolt handle also. Reason I ask is I also have a remington 700 that I would like to have done and it isn't so easy to break down and I'm lazy ;D. Also, does the metal parts have to be media blasted prior to nitriding, I guess the bluing has to be removed?

[Stephenthesuave]

I will be calling John tomorrow or Tuesday if he isn't working due to the holiday. I will post what he advises in regards to bolts. I would be fine just getting the bolt handle done. I have the same question about barreled actions so I will find that out as well. Thanks for all the info.

[358Hammer]

John is going to advise that fine steel wool and toilet cleaner will easily and quickly take the blueing off your gun parts. That Rum barrel I just had done had blue inside the barrel and he removed it for me prior to sending in.

For me the bolt body,head and baffle along with the handle were, Attractive and Nitride rotating against Nitride sure did slick up my bolt when it comes to opening and closing..

I do not remember my metalurgy very well but I am thinking that leaving a barrel inside of an action is not the proper thing to do. I know that many of us put neverseize type products on the threads prior to installing an action. That stuff needs to be cleaned off the threads.

John is both a Master Machinist of which few are his equal as well as a gun smith with a manufacturers license. He is a pretty smart guy so ask in confidence.

Neal

[sha-ul]

I'm not sure if the process would affect the properties of the bolt head to the positive, or negative, but one certainly could treat the bolt body& handle.

[Stephenthesuave]

Well I didn't get a chance to call today, so I'll try tomorrow. I emailed Joel kendricks and he is going to get ms some info next week. I found a local place that will do the rifle for $350 ::)

[WYcoyote]

I've got a 6.5-.284 Norma barrel that is due back from Benchmark soon and I would love to get it nitrided but guess it has to wait for another batch because it's SS.

[Rifleman51]

If it's the process I think it is, it works fine on new barrels, but due to the increased lubricity of the finish, barrels that have some wear in the lead, the bullet skids over the beginning of the rifling and they shoot like crap. it's fine on the new barrels.
Not sure if it's the same process, but I only know of one process that has stopped the wear in the throat of AR barrels and it sounds like the same process.
Was the process developed over a 2 year timespan for the military?

Buyer beware if your sending a used barrel. It does work on new barrels with sharp rifling in the leade. Also, once done, no putting on a muzzle brake or setting the barrel back of any other machine work, the coating makes the metal too hard to be machined.

John K

[jwolf]

I have 2 SS barrels, 1 a factory 6.5X284 & another Shelin 7mm WSM that havent been shot yet. After break-in I would entertain the idea of having both nitrided. How many barrels will it take for a run? How do I contact the person doing the treating?

[sha-ul]

I have 2 SS barrels, 1 a factory 6.5X284 & another Shelin 7mm WSM that havent been shot yet. After break-in I would entertain the idea of having both nitrided. How many barrels will it take for a run? How do I contact the person doing the treating?

I wonder just how much break-in should be done before treating a barrel like this, maybe if you had a lapped barrel, you could treat it right away, but on a non factory lapped???
thoughts?

[358Hammer]

I have done it both ways and it doesn't seem to make any difference.
t
I do know for a fact that someone with an almost shot out barrel sent the barrel in for treatment. It would not hit a piece of notebook paper when the barrel was reinstalled on the action. If in doubt have someone inspect with a bore scope and see if there is checking going on. " Heat fractures" caused from shooting.

Neal

[philkryder]

1...

3. ... and be aware that Savage does not stress relieve barrels or Actions. I had nicely fitted barreled actions that need to have the stock re-worked after the treatment as the bolts were now tight in the bolt holes.
...


Neal

Neal - thanks for all the good info.

what is your opinion on what would happen to the fit of at "timed and trued" action after treatment of the bolt-head, baffles, barrel and receiver?

[Stephenthesuave]

I called John this evening. He told me that they are only taking barrels right now. I'm gonna have to pass right now, or find someone else to do it. The rust resistance on the barrel won't help my issue with the action and everything else corroding almost instantly here in Alaska.

[358Hammer]

The past few days I have been working with a long time friend and the smartest metalurgist I know on the possibility of softening the sub-metal when doing one of the various Nitriding processes on the surface of an action. Be advised that this also applies to quality barrel material as well. Barrels-NO CHANGE)

This person has several Nitrided actions and has done about 30 barrels now.

Punch several none Nitrided actions after my first phone call. Front of action hardness average without Nitride. 42R After Nitride 40R
Back of action harness was the same 2 point differential and the initual starting value was somewhat less than the front of the action.

Now John called the metal treatment company and spoke with the chief engineer. That is where the information came from regarding the softening of the under meterial. The engineer said that all pre-hardened metals would drop their hardness to roughly 28R.

My metalurgist friend read,calculated and punched steel until well into the early morning hours.

Analogy: One must place a pre-hardened metal in heat @1500+ degress for 2 or more hours to soften the hardened steel. Nitride depending on process is in 1100-1200 degrees for 1 hour and then it is quench at 750 degrees two different times.

I am sending out my Nitrided Action today to have it tested. Visual inspection reveals nothing has changed period after a hundred rounds of heavily loaded 338 Win Mag .

I had my entire barreled action Nitrided because I trusted the guy. John did not trust him so we are now backtracking slightly and confirming what another has already tested for several years. I dear say that we are the first one's to punch steel and confirmed what some of us learned in school. We did not loose action hardness of a value that would make a difference;.

Neal

[358Hammer]

In my experience nothing has changed to tolerances or brake orientation when Ferratic Nitriding. Titanium and many other processes adds onto metal even though it is measured in microns and I do not know what if anything will change in measurment . I do know that applying Titanium to a 224 diameter barrel ruined several barrels as the rifling was filled with titanium and the depth of the rifling was not enough after the treatment to stabilize a bullet.

That is why I chose Ferratic as it adds nothing to metal so one does not have to do anything about changing metal/measurements/or anything.

Beware that not all Nitriding places do quality work on precision shooting sports items. The first one I went with did quality work and had done it to a hundred guns over the past 3 years. ( Also retired Law Enforcement) The retired officer friend of John's (different than the first) has been doing Ferratic Nitride to AR stuff for at least 10 years with the same company in Minnesota. He builds AR's and travels the country teaching gun related stuff.

John is just a drop off point and hopefully he and the treatment company will come up with a way so I can get 3 more actions treated.

Neal

[dmack]

Thanks for the info Neal!
One question, 42R, are you referring to Rockwell "C" scale?

[358Hammer]

Yes- sorry Rockwell C-scale.

The rockwell C-scale hardness of Ferratic Nitride is 68-70 after treatment and penetration is .003-.004

I am currently at 75 rounds with the 6.5 WSM and there isn't any sign of errosion. I am shooting nothing but Barnes 120's and Nosler 130's. Velocities are 3350 and above.
Neal

[762X51]

You got me curious so I did a little research and found a very informative site that describes the process. It is well worth the short read...

http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/...-ferritic.html