40S&W/10MM in a Savage?

[cowboyarcher]

Mods, not sure if this the right place for this, I'd be glad to post elsewhere if needed. . .

Been day dreaming about building a 40S&W/10MM on a SA savage. The case head diameter is .424" on these, .421" on a 6.8SPC and .442" on a PPC. Do you foresee it working with either of those bolt heads? I assume anyone who chambers for 40S&W/10MM and builds Savage barrels could help me with that part?

It would not be the most practical weapon, but it would be great for close range plinking, cheap to shoot, and would be fun suppressed. . . It should also be fairly effective as a close range hunting weapon. I'd do some custom mag box work and feed it from glock magazines since I already am loading and shooting from them.

Thanks for the input and discussion fellas. God bless you all,

Adam

[snowgetter1]

Great idea. I remember seeing a post here some time ago on a 45 ACP savage. You may be able to search it. The only problem I could see is short case ejection problems. But, it should work. I just did a 450 Bushmaster and it works great.

[cowboyarcher]

I remember the 45 ACP rifle to. . . I think he used a standard bolt face with his, and he did have ejection issues due to the short case.

[sinman]

if I was building one I would take a 223 bolt and open it up to the proper size. I plan on making a few different barrel/bolt combos in pistol/heavy hitting rifle cartridges

[J.Baker]

Every now and then I come across a thread on here that really makes me wonder if some of you weren't dropped on your heads one too many times as a baby. This is one of them.

Let me elaborate...

1. What are you going to use for a magazine?
2. How are you going to retain the magazine in the stock?
3. You do realize you'll have to permanently modify the feed port in the action to accommodate any double-stack pistol magazine, right?
4. You do realize that by design the Savage mechanics can't/won't properly extract/eject such a short case, right?

And those are just the blatantly obvious issues with this idea.

Can it be done? Sure...if you want to waste a ton of time and money on it anything can be done. Does it make sense to do? No...because there are already dozens of readily available carbine rifles on the market specifically designed to shoot pistol cartridges and they do so flawlessly. For all the time, money and headaches you'd have in trying to make this work on a Savage you could buy several readily available carbines from Hi-Point, Beretta, Ruger, Kel-Tec, etc.

[1ShotKing]

Every now and then I come across a thread on here that really makes me wonder if some of you weren't dropped on your heads one too many times as a baby. This is one of them.

Let me elaborate...

1. What are you going to use for a magazine?
2. How are you going to retain the magazine in the stock?
3. You do realize you'll have to permanently modify the feed port in the action to accommodate any double-stack pistol magazine, right?
4. You do realize that by design the Savage mechanics can't/won't properly extract/eject such a short case, right?

And those are just the blatantly obvious issues with this idea.

Can it be done? Sure...if you want to waste a ton of time and money on it anything can be done. Does it make sense to do? No...because there are already dozens of readily available carbine rifles on the market specifically designed to shoot pistol cartridges and they do so flawlessly. For all the time, money and headaches you'd have in trying to make this work on a Savage you could buy several readily available carbines from Hi-Point, Beretta, Ruger, Kel-Tec, etc.

MrFurious, with all due respect don't you think this response is a little over the top? Isn't this what a forum is for, where members can share their ideas and discuss them with others? Maybe the idea isn't the best, and maybe it won't work. But who's to blame or shut down a guy just because it won't be easy or cost effective? If all great inventors had this mind set and were going to listen to pessimistic peers we would still be traveling by horse and buggy.

[cowboyarcher]

if I was building one I would take a 223 bolt and open it up to the proper size. I plan on making a few different barrel/bolt combos in pistol/heavy hitting rifle cartridges

What calibers were you thinking Devin? Could you get some cheaper blanks to facilitate testing better?

[cowboyarcher]

Every now and then I come across a thread on here that really makes me wonder if some of you weren't dropped on your heads one too many times as a baby. This is one of them.

Let me elaborate...

1. What are you going to use for a magazine?
2. How are you going to retain the magazine in the stock?
3. You do realize you'll have to permanently modify the feed port in the action to accommodate any double-stack pistol magazine, right?
4. You do realize that by design the Savage mechanics can't/won't properly extract/eject such a short case, right?

And those are just the blatantly obvious issues with this idea.

Can it be done? Sure...if you want to waste a ton of time and money on it anything can be done. Does it make sense to do? No...because there are already dozens of readily available carbine rifles on the market specifically designed to shoot pistol cartridges and they do so flawlessly. For all the time, money and headaches you'd have in trying to make this work on a Savage you could buy several readily available carbines from Hi-Point, Beretta, Ruger, Kel-Tec, etc.

Please see the OP for responses to most of your concerns. . .

And I am sure you have diagnosed what is wrong with me, I must have been dropped on my head! It's not my fault then so bear with me. . .

[snowgetter1]

Cowboy,
Along the pistol cartridge lines, in the Army we would fire AT-4 simulators which fired 9mm tracer ammo. It was great fun and we could shoot tanks out to about 300 meters with pratice. And yes it was a lob shot, but not extreme. I always thought it was cool and in a Savage it would be interesting just to see what you could do with it as far as accuracy and distance.

[J.Baker]

It would not be the most practical weapon, but it would be great for close range plinking, cheap to shoot, and would be fun suppressed. . . It should also be fairly effective as a close range hunting weapon.

So buy a 22LR - by your own words that's what would suit your needs the best as there's nothing more practical, more fun, cheaper to shoot or as effectively suppressed. And if you question the killing power of the 22LR as a short-range hunting rifle, I know of more than a few nuisance deer that have fallen victim to a farmer with a well placed 22lr round to the head.

And I am sure you have diagnosed what is wrong with me, I must have been dropped on my head! It's not my fault then so bear with me. . .

My "dropped on their head" comment wasn't meant as an insult or directed specifically towards you, but rather a general observation regarding an ever increasing number of threads started on this site posing questions pertaining to modifications or builds that lack any kind of applicable forethought in terms of feasibility and functionality.

While the Savage action design is very adaptive, it does have it's limitations - one of which is extraction/ejection with short cases. This is due in part to three key design elements...

1. The placement of both the ejector and extractor
2. The lug raceway location
3. The fact that most brass is undersized and all bold heads are over-sized

Combine these three things and it equates to non-functional extraction with extremely short cases (most pistol cases) and/or relatively short bottle neck cases (i.e. the 221 Fireball). The problem is that the extractor only holds one side of the case rim, and the ejector is pushing against the other side of the case head. As a result, the length of the case and the inside diameter of the action is all that limits the angle to which the ejector can push the case to and prevents the case from slipping out from under the lip of the extractor. Throw in the additional slop of the over-sized bolt dead diameters and the undersized brass and the angle at which the brass disengages from the extractor and falls loose becomes even less.

It's no secret that the .221 Fireball won't extract/eject properly in a 110 action for this very reason. While the overall length of the Fireball case is sufficient, the diameter is small enough - especially at the neck - that it fits within the raceway cut inside the action and thus allows the ejector to push the case to such an angle that the extractor will no longer hold it and it will fall loose into the action. As a result you have to pick the brass out by hand. This is the same issue you will have with the extremely short 40S&W or 10mm pistol brass - but in it's case it will simply be a factor of the overall length of the case being too short rather than it being too small in diameter and fitting into the raceway cut.

In truth you would be better off starting with a Savage Model 25 or Mossberg MVP than a Savage 110 action as the dimensions of both are smaller than that of the Savage 110. Smaller diameter action, shorter overall length, etc. that would much better suite you're extremely short pistol cartridge. Even with the smaller inside action diameter I still doubt the extractor design of either would hold that short of a case in place to eject properly to prevent the case from falling free from the extractor.

If you feel compelled to follow through with this project and you're willing to invest the money and time into it then by all means have at it, but that still doesn't change the fact that there are mechanical limitations to the Savage design that will prevent it from becoming a functional and reliable reality. Longer pistol cartridges such as the .500 S&W or .480 Ruger might be long enough to work with the 110 design, but due to their being rimmed cases they pose their own problematic issues with the 110 design as it was never intended to be used with rimmed cases.

So again - you'd be much better off saving your time and money just buying a readily available carbine than trying to cobble together something using a Savage that likely won't work out anyway. Think/work smarter, not harder.

[J.Baker]

If all great inventors had this mind set and were going to listen to pessimistic peers we would still be traveling by horse and buggy.

Great inventors don't waste their time trying to reinvent something unless doing so will accomplish one of three things:

1. It can be made faster (less labor/cost)
2. It can be made better (higher quality/same cost)
2. It can be made cheaper (same quality/higher profits)

If the reinvention doesn't accomplish one of those three things then one is just wasting his/her time. It would be like wanting to reinvent the wheel using a triangle - not only is it a bad idea, even if you succeed in the endeavor it is still bound to be a failure. Even if it were cheaper to produce or could be made faster, the ride would be so rough that no one would want it anyway so why waste the time/effort?

Much as we would all like to be able to build or modify our Savage's into whatever our warped and twisted minds can come up with, the fact remains that the design has it's limitations and no matter what we do or how much time/money we throw at it certain things will never work with a Savage. Occasionally some have to be reminded of that, and if I come off a little brash or harsh to them in the process of issuing that reminder then oh well - like the Savage design I too am far from perfect.

[rjtfroggy]

I remember the post about the 45 conversion, and IIRC it was written by either Dcloco or dolimite-superfly, probably the first.
Try to contact them through PM they don't post much anymore.
It is your time your money so have at it and have fun.

[ancient mariner]

Why not simply purchase a carbine already made in 40 S&W or 10mm? MechTech Systems makes a very nice, fully functional, accurate firearm.

AM