Reply With QuoteI always drop a bullet in mine when I get them to check protrusion. might have showed your short throat.
I got 3 one day that were not right.
This was my original situation:
1. 6mm Kreiger- Ordered a 6mm Gain Twist 1.25"-1" blank that will finish at 28" - top of the line barrel for my new 6brx build. 1st Kreiger I ever bought. Asked builder to please hand select from the several there. I got it, had it polished and was getting it chambered soon (going nutless) and decided to check it w/ a bore scope to see the visible quality differences of cut vs. button rifling on my New Shilen 6.5 barrel I also just got. Well, to make a long story short, the Kreiger is now in the mail back to them, as the bore scope revealed machine tool marks, pits, gouges in the lands and grooves. I was very surprised and super disappointed that I speant more than I ever have on a barrel so I could get what I believed to be one of the best in the industry and somehow that Tomato Stake got out of their shop and to me. I am sure they are going to handle it ok and they were very nice on the phone. I am sure they are going to replace it, however, I am out the $50 for the polish job and the $24 to send it back. I have asked them to please refund both those to me. I will report what happens for your information.
2. Shilen Select Match 28" bull barrel 260AI that was to be be longer throated. I was told to send 2 dummy rounds they way I wanted them so they would do it that way. I spoke to them 3 times during the long 5 month wait, asking on delivery, confirming my order every time. 2 times they couldn't find my dummy rounds, but they said they had them and it was on the order. After a 5 month wait, I received my new barrel, got it polished, borrowed gages, installed barrel, put action all back together, base- blue loctite, rings- blue loctite, borescoped scope then began measuring OAL w/ my Horn OAL gage and comparitor so I can start load dev. as I have a match this weekend that I was very excited about shooting in. Well, I discovered that rather than cutting the chamber that they told me how to order, they cut the std sammi chamber- Again, how did this happen and how did it get out of their shop?? Its all over my order, it was talked about every time we spoke, I call them, and the only thing they can do , is have me take my polished barrel off- which means I have to take my scope, rings, and base- all blue loctited and hours of work in them, send the barrel back and they will do what they should have done in the first place-- Did I mention I am PO'd?? So what do I do, I don't have gages, my match is on Sunday, and they were very nice about it and I can appreciate their position, and they really do want to make this right, but where does that leave me? No rifle to shoot for awhile? I have to un-do , then re-do everything I did as the rifle was totally disassembled to fit the action wrench. If I were paying a gunsmith as I am w/ the Kreiger above I would have a huge bill and have to go on his waiting list again, etc. I have hours of labor in both of these and I have to undo it all, send them back so I can redo it all over again.
Things do happen, but I believe its how a company handles any mistake that really makes their reputation. In both cases I have to say that they are both- at this point- trying to do everything they can to make it right and I appreciate their efforts. However, my question is- How did Both These Barrels Get Out of Their Shop Like That? 2 barrels, 2 seperate companies. I order a barrel or 2 every 2 years.
So, I now learned the game, in order to win the game I learned that if I ever order a barrel again from someone, The day I get it, It is getting: Bore Scoped, Chamber Checked, Twist Checked and everything that I can concevably check checked before it goes anywhere. Based on the names of these two fine companies, I didn't think I would have to do that.
I will let you all know how this ultimatly turns out. As I said, mix up's happen, but the true test of a company is what they do about it.
I always drop a bullet in mine when I get them to check protrusion. might have showed your short throat.
I got 3 one day that were not right.
.223 Rem AI, .22-250 AI, .220 Swift AI .243 Win AI, .6mm Rem AI, .257 Rob AI, .25-06 AI, 6.5x300wsm .30-06 AI, .270 STW, 7mm STW, 28 nosler, .416 Taylor
Wow, I guess I can't be too upset now. I just got a "premier match" barrel from McGowen that is marked 1:8 as I ordered, but is actually 1:8.5 to 1:9 depending on where I measure. How often does this stuff happen?
The twist rate on very, very few barrels is dead-on-the-money what the nominal spec calls for. I know of one barrel maker who claims that they can give you exactly the twist you specify.
This is in part the difference between a button and cut rifle barrel, at least from what I have read. The button rifle barrels are close but not exact, where as the cut barrel is supposed to be closer to spec. Again, this is based on what I have read - am sure there are those here that can explain much better than I.Originally Posted by 319
WOW,
I'll mark two more makers off my list of people I buy from or at least rely on to do the correct work.
I have noticed this on a few different boards about other items as well. Seems like makers do the most they possibly can to generate positive reviews at first then after they are established as being good they go to hell in a handbasket. At some point they will need to be less concerned with volume and more concerned over what got them to where they are, quality products.
My last barrel I bought was a Shilen and I am happy with it but mine was a blank that had all the machining done locally.
Dolomite
I had that happen with Shilen also, Bought a match 28" for my 22 Cheetah and sent 2 dummy rounds with 80 gr. A max to the length i wanted, When it came i fond a note saying it was .045 short, So i had to ream it out, NEVER AGAIN
I guess this is why they make chevy and ford, chocolate and vanilla. Most everything I read about either is good but being in business I learned 1 bad review will cancel out 10 positive, please do not jump to conclusions solely based on a couple peoples bad experiences. Maybe the person chambering these barrels was having a bad day and passed it on by mistake.
Though these two reputable barrel makers have great honor it is understood that it is a vigorous anger when one goes through all the things required to install a barrel (twice) then find out I have to go through all that wait and shipping cost again.
This happend to me a number of times throughout the years: The most recent is when I saw something and put an 8 power magnification on it and saw some extremely ugly tooling marks in the bore. I told the company and they requested I send them the barrel. It started at the bottom (intake) and went to the engineer. I was called and told there was nothing wrong and I should not have used magnification!!!!! Since I am not a professional and haven't all the correct equipment, when I received the bad barrel back I sent it to a friend in the business. The day he got the barrel I received a call.
Neal: my base pin would not enter the muzzle more than 1/2". The barrel steel is of the correct hardness, there are no signs to indicate anything other than someone forgot to lap the barrel. I told him to see if he could get the barrel in spec. Two days later I got the call that the barrel cleaned well but not perfect. It was undersized enough that 90% of the tooling marks cleaned up. Cost to me $35. for the measuring and lapping. Bore was 5-8 thou under.
I really wish not to anger anyone or imply that anyone does not know something.
The only way I have found to semi-accurately check a twist rate is by making a lead lap plug about an inch long and draw(mark) through the bore. I use to use a rod and patch. Many times I could get a different reading every time I used the patch. When I used multiple patches and drove the rod into the bore with a plastic mallet my twist measurments were pretty consistant.
Regarding McGowen or any other button type rifling system my experience as well as those I trust I found that it very tough to measure an exact twist. A cut rifling machine is gear driven. Hence one tells the machine what twist to cut and it cuts to within very tight tolerance. A button rifling is not quite as tight but would guess to within a 16th of an inch. There is a barrel maker out there that makes button barrel that only guarantees plus or minus half a turn. That is how he deals with a worn drive I guess.
There use to be a barrel maker out there who was building break open barrels using Green Mountain 2nds. He was getting a lot of returns for a lot of different reasons. SO he started telling people that he was using name brand blanks ( McGowen) while he was actually still using those super inexpensive blanks. When I started seeing a bunch of e-mails and getting phone calls, a hardness test was done on the blank,weld and barrel. Blank R12, weld R 18 and lug R15. Equals very poor barrel life!
There is a reason I use certain people for certain parts. Customer service is one of them. Not using the wonderful and polite people who make me feel good all over is the main reason. I really dislaike waiting months, paying good money up front and then have to start the waiting game all over again.
Neal
On rifle barrels.
About three yrs. ago I went to a gunsmith here in Va. to have my bolt put back on, on a Rem. 700. different story.
This smith is a very well nationally known BR smith, builds BR rifles, & a lot of high accuracy stuff...
The UPS delivered a package to him while I was talking to him. It was from another well know smith from the mid west. I was surprised, but he told me he does a lot of chamber work for other smiths. This guy is a real precision smith.
He sets the barrel up to chamber to a 6PPC. This barrel is from a very well know cut barrel maker often mentioned on the Savage forum. Since you gun smiths know how it's done, I’ll just explain what I saw.
After he chambered it, he put an “indicator”, if that’s the correct name, in the chamber/neck area, & hand turned the barrel & the digital read out didn’t move. He then moved the indicator into the leade/throat area. Turned the barrel by hand, & every time it hit one of the lands, it jumped .004 to .006, & following into the groove, it was wider than the other groves.
He did this a few times, slowly as I watched.
Took it out of the lathe, put it back in the box, & said: I’ll have to tell (the smith who sent it to him) that he should not put this on the BR gun he was building for a BR shooter. Put his bore scope in the barrel, & hooked it to his TV monitor. He could see it, because of the difference in the with of the lands
This was a cut rifling barrel.
this Va. Smith, makes his own barrels, & I personally at random picked two barrels from a pile he had & put a “mandrel” in them & each measured to the millionth, inside diameter, land to groove...
What impressed me about this situation was, the Va. Smith never once criticized the cut rifling barrel maker. He could have easily said, look at mine, & look at his.
I guess the bottom line of all this is, every barrel maker will at some time let a bad one get out of the shop. A good gunsmith also doesn’t always do perfect work.
As long as they back up there work/products, if some thing goes wrong, I can live with that.
I don’t have a bore scope, wish I did. Well maybe not, as I might be more particular.
;D
I stopped using and recommending Pac-Nor due to a bad barrel that they wouldn't correct. It had lots of tool marks, over size towards the muzzle and the chamber was crooked. They said it was damaged by me when I cleaned it. I said that a graphite rod with plastic jag and cotton patches couldn't even mark a barrel let alone damage it! They didn't replace it or refund my money. >
Wow!! I guess the average joe (me) would never know the internal quality of a custom barrel. I will be ordering a barrel in the next 2 months so I hope I get one that was made on the "good barrel making day". ;D
I realize people have bad days but when you spend good hard earned money you expect to get a well made barrel. As already stated it is a real pain to have to re do everything. If the manufacturer is willing to work with you that should be some satifaction, but doesn't make it right.
Goodluck hope you get what you originally paid for.
On the side of the barrel makers when you consider their volume the amount of screw ups are probably quite a small percentage. Problem is when you are spending as mich as premium barrel makers command you expect a certain amount of quality.
It seems as though this is happening a lot more often, especially since the Obama mania that hit last year. With everybody's rush to make more to keep up with demand it started affecting the quality of the parts being made. Additionally sellers were looking for cheaper suppliers to buy from and generally when you go cheaper there are reasons for it, namely the quality of the product. I know of a precision rifle maker who recently changed suppliers to get cheaper receivers for their "precision" AR builds. They were using higher end lowers made by a manufacturer who holds numerosu large government contracts supplying lowers, complete rifles as well as barrels. The rifle maker decided to make this change so they could increase their profits during the craziness that was going on. Another benefit to going with the cheaper parts is that it was also quicker to make thus making getting the parts easier also.
Don't ask, I will not mention which builder it is but I know this to be fact.
I have seen others use materials they normally wouldn't for anything. They used these parts to make "blaster" guns just for a quick sale. I know of one distributor (not related to the maker above) who was selling barrels that had the bore accidentally ceramic coated. Granted they were cheaper than their normal barrels but I stood at the table for about 40 minutes sorting through uppers to buy. During that time they sold over 30 barrels and never once mentioned to the buyers the barrels had ceramic coated bores. In my opinion this could be dangerous because the bore dimensions are tighter and very rough leading to very quick fouling and thus a serious amount of copper build up. I think this would be enough to cause substancial pressure issues. I bought one for a rimfire build thinking it couldn't be that bad with a rimfire. My thinking the rimfire rounds would coat and smooth the bore while at the same time contricting it making it better suited to shooting rimfires. When I got home with it I tried to run a patch down the bore to clean it and couldn't because of the resistance. Next I tried a copper brush and after about 10 or so passes the copper brush had been worn enough to be noticeable. It fouled so quickly that even after that I could not get it to shoot smaller than 18" at 50 yards. This distributor would have never even sold these prior to Obama mania but now he had no problems selling them even though they are dangerous.
Dolomite
When I had my rifle barrel built by a company, they had forgot to polish the bore. I sent some pictures of the brass and the tooling marks. Normally there is a waiting period to send rifles. The immediatly offered to send a prepaid shipping label throught USPS. I decided to ship the rifle UPS since their shipping rates are faster. The company recieved my rifle on Friday was back on UPS truck on Monday. When I got the rifle, they had added an extra box. I opened pulled the first box out and their was a $20 bill taped to the original box to cover shipping. Now, that gun is one of the most accurate rifles I've ever seen. I won't hesitate to go back to them either.
They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
I think a lot of these companies will treat you right if they screw up, but the thing I don't understand is if they say their barrels are Ultra Match, or Select Match, or Premium Match, or Super Dooper Magic Match, how can they be allowing sub par product to be going out their doors with the company name on it??? It seems from reading these posts that it happens a lot more than one would think. (3 barrels from just 1 guy???) come on, that is insane. I am glad he had the patience and good graces to stick it out. I know I sure wouldn't.
This is a really good thread, but what I don't understand is why you are all unwilling to name names? We are big boys and can read between the lines. I have bought barrels from only three makers: Broughton, Douglas, Hart. The Broughton is by far; in my opinion the best overall. Tim North is great to do business with too. The Douglas barrels are good, no real problems as far as I am concerned. The Hart barrel shot fine but nothing special. I don't have a bore scope and I never checked the twist rate. I just bought the barrels, had them installed by my smith and shot the guns. My assessment is based on accuracy and ease of cleaning. Like I said, my Broughton 5C barrels are my hands down favorite.
Here is a thought. Maybe I am wrong but at least I feel this has some merit.
A long time ago when I was shopping around for select barrels from many different barrel makers I paid a lot of money for that piece of steel because in those days select meant;
" Neal when we are making barrels,pinning and lapping and inspecting, some barrels are much closer to tolerance". I would think that statement which I have heard a number of times would imply that every barrel is inspected and the $400. barrels marked as selected was one of those barrels. I currently buy from one small barrel maker because every barrel is tested multiple times ( hardness)for consistent quality prior to having a hole punched through it. Then the hole is bored, pinned,lapped, then a rifling is cut.
SO my opinion is if I am paying those big bucks and have to wait a long time to get it, it better not be a reject. I paid for it to be correct the first time.
Neal
Dont think you would get an argument from anyone here on that statement Neal. I agree 100%
”I have a very strict gun control policy: if there’s a gun around, I want to be in control of it.”
~Clint Eastwood
If I had a bore scope, and I can afford to buy one if I wanted it, I would use it to inspect for erosion or maybe copper buildup. But not to inspect a new high quality barrel for what I might consider poor workman ship, or damage that the maker or there inspector passes. I would not pretend to know more about barrel making than they do. I shoot mine to determine if its a stake, a good or great barrel.
I'm not even sure the barrel maker, using a bore scope can tell the difference between a good and a great barrel just by looking.
I can say, so far Ive never got a bad one, and all can shoot in the .2s or better with someone else at the trigger, and I buy Pac-Nor's. And have been vary happy with the way they shoot.
Mike.
heres what i can tell you, my shilen (that was short chambered) the lands and grooves looked as they should shiney, crisp corners, great. My Kreiger had pits, tooling marks, craters in the lands and grooves. Trust me, if you would have seen what I saw, you would have done the same thing. Any person that had half a clue looking down the bore of that Kreiger would have come to the same conclusion. Pits, tooling marks, craters, all are out of place on a top end barrel's rifling
Has anyone ever looked down a new USGI issue rifle barrel? I just wonder what the Government will except from there barrel makers, compared to, say Kreiger? Do they chrome plate the pits and gouges? On TV I saw them making M-16 barrels once, but didn't see any bore scopes around.
Mike.
Dunno, I would assume there is some kind of QC. But not sure if its the same standard. Minute of bad guy out to 200yds w/ open sites, reliability and the other criteria that GI barrels are manufactured to are different than what I would expect from a world class Benchrest Barrel mfg. like any of the top names.
It is prob. spot checked- 1 in 1000 or so are checked for stuff I would imagine.
Savageboy, it sounds like your shilen chamber was a mistake, and the Kreiger was just bad work, or maybe it was the new guys first day.
Mike.
.223 Rem AI, .22-250 AI, .220 Swift AI .243 Win AI, .6mm Rem AI, .257 Rob AI, .25-06 AI, 6.5x300wsm .30-06 AI, .270 STW, 7mm STW, 28 nosler, .416 Taylor
OK, here is the update from Kreiger- still deciding if I want to take the Shilen all apart again and get it throated the way it should have been and what it says all over the order- Anyway: Got a call from Kreiger today. They inspected the barrel, agreed that there were some cosmetic flaws, made a lead cast of the barrel and re-lapped it. He claims that all the marks came out and that he recommends shooting the barrel, etc. We spoke at length and I have decided to take his recommendation. I will get it back and the first thing I do is run it over to get bore scoped. Will advise. They are refunding my Shipping $ to me, so as long as the barrel shoots and all tooling marks, etc. are gone and it shoots good, I will be happy.
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