Reply With QuotePersonally I think tube guns are going to become the norm sooner or later. Could turn out slick been some pretty sweet custom tubes posted in the forums.
So I have been kicking around the idea of building and aluminum chassis for the Axis/Edge and wanted to reach out the community to see if you had any ideas that you could offer. The idea is to use some sort of premade butt stock, similar to this, http://www.ebay.com/itm/FAB-Defense-...item4d09c61d9a , machine the main body and trigger guard from aluminum billet for the action, and use aluminum tubing for a barrel shroud.
I would like to be able to use a fairly standard mag for this. Any ideas or suggestions? The rifle will be chambered in .308 with a Hog Hunter Barrel and Muzzle brake.
Please feel free to pick this apart and offer any better ideas than what I have listed above. I am going to talk with the machinist tomorrow. He is a retired Gentleman who loves special projects like this, especially when it comes to guns.
Personally I think tube guns are going to become the norm sooner or later. Could turn out slick been some pretty sweet custom tubes posted in the forums.
Anyone know of a readily available clip for the 308? Preferably mil surp.
Might look at the USGI ? Trouble is finding something reasonable hopefully the prices will start to come back in line with reality again. I paid something like 3x's and some change retail for a New Ruger Mini-14/M1a mag on the secondary market cause I didn't want to wait it out. Still some bargains out there but who has time to chase em down.
I was thinking of something like this http://www.brownells.com/magazines/r...prod27330.aspx
They have the 10 rounds in stock and the price seems pretty good. I checked out an AR mag yesterday and I don't think it will work as is. It doesn't look like the feed lips will work with our bolts. I could be wrong though. The idea here is to use parts that are easily attainable to everyone at reasonable prices. I want to set it up to work with the myriad of Mossberg or 870 butt stocks and a readily available clip. The link above has clips in 5, 10, 15, 20, and 25 rounds.
Also, if anyone has access to a CNC and CAD and can help me out with this I would love to hear from you. Everything we are doing here is going to all be by hand.
It's a very interesting project... but it's going to get expensive very quick. (there is already $200 just into the butt stock, and mag. AND... you still need the machined part) AND... it's not going to be very universal. Basically... with an M1A mag... you will only be able to fit "Mid" sized rounds. Anything like a 270 or 30-06 will be WAY too long to work in it. BUT... the WSM rounds may be OK.
When getting someone to help machine parts... unless you are willing to pay for a true "One-Off" part... it needs to be adaptable to the other models. (so costs can be offset) Also... are you going to draw the parts needed in CAD... or would you expect someone else to do it?
Don't take what I'm saying the wrong way (i'm not trying to be harsh)... I'm just throwing out some random thoughts. Personally... I think it sounds cool.
Do you have an idea of what the finished project should look like?
*****EDIT******
I just did a google search for "Tube gun"... and I found some pics. Interesting.
Last edited by Dr Honda; 03-28-2013 at 08:11 PM.
The intention of this is to use it with a short action round, really the .308. I am not planning at this time to take anything into production but it would be nice to be able to do a run of a few for those that want them.
I am very fortunate to have a relationship with a retired machinist gun nut who loves to do things like this. He has a full machine shop in his basement. He has done several AR projects and pretty much anything we need done that doesn't require a gunsmith, i.e. setting headspace on Mausers, remingtons, etc. The main body that needs to be machined doesn't look like it will be that difficult. Also, my good friend is finishing up school to be a machinist next month and is going to draw up the CAD program for me.
The idea for this is to see what can be done and hopefully duplicated. No one is offering a stock for this platform at this time so why not play around with it? I have to say that I am a huge fan of how smooth my action is. I don't know if I got lucky but it is far smoother than any of my 10/110s.
Also, I am in complete agreement on everything you said in your post. I take no offense. This is the kind of feedback I am looking for.
The link I posted of the butt stock above is on the high end but I thought it would work well as it is a folding stock and has a height adjustable cheek piece. ATI makes one similar for $100. They can be bought in a traditional AR style for about $65. The mags run about $25.
When looking at the prices for an XLR or AI chassis, you are looking at between $800-$2000 and that is before you machine them to fit the Axis.
Also, think of the finished chassis more like this http://www.xlrindustries.com/evolution.html versus what you see when you google tube guns. There is some really cool stuff out there and I have gotten several ideas of trying to blend the two.
Hummmm...... Cool.
You are absolutely right, on basically all of those points. No one does anything for this gun.. so anything is good. No one does a stock... so even a tactical, aluminum version is good. (it looks cool, but it's going to be heavy)
If a cheaper... good folding stock is out there... then that would be cool. BUT... in my experience... the cheap folders are still pricey, and not very good quality. I think if the rear of the chassis was a regular AR tube... that would allow a lot of personal variation. (folders, adjustable, sliding, recoil absorbing, and prices to fit most budgets)
Looks like the 308 Savage mag is also good for the 243 and 7mm-08 also. SO... they may work with the M1A mag also.
The reason I was asking about if you were going to do the CAD, was because you were asking if anyone had CNC equipment available. Obviously... people who do have CNC are going want to be able to make a few of them, to be able to offset tooling, fixtureing, and time costs. But, since you have connections already, that's not an issue.
****EDIT******
In my mind... a "Chassis" is what I was picturing, over a covered, tube action. I'm thinking that if you take a standard AR-15 style lower... but then blend it to an Axis action. That would be great.
Hummmm.... I may have to try that. (lol)
Last edited by Dr Honda; 03-29-2013 at 12:37 PM.
The AR-15 style is still very much a possibility. We have about 10 un-machined receivers that we are thinking about using. The problem there though is being able to duplicate it. Lot's of possibilities here. I love the feedback I am getting on this.Originally Posted by Dr Honda
Also, that M14 clip "should" work with anything with the .308 parent case, i.e. 7-08, 243,22-250, etc.
I am also seriously considering using the AR style tube set up. The only drawback is the pistol grip being a separate component. I was under the impression that the butt stock for the Mossberg was the same thing once you got the "tube" portion on there?
Last edited by cheapshot; 03-29-2013 at 01:48 PM.
I don't think taking an "80%" AR lower would be the right thing to do. I was basically saying.... take some of the design elements (rear tube, trigger guard, mag well) and then create a mod'ed lower to fit better.
Don't get me wrong... I like that ATI folder you posted... but it's +$150. If I was going to play with this idea... I'd start with an 870 folder. (I have an 870) that way... if it didn't go anywhere... then at least I could put it on my shotgun. (lol)
HUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM........................... .
I just had a thought.....
OK... the AR rear tube stock is cool, and pleantafull.... but.... if you did build a chassis with a Mossberg, or 870 rear section.... that may actually be better. That way... the end user could buy a used (ebay) rear wood stock cheep.... buy a tactical folder... OR... even buy a SWEET Boyd's laminate thumbhole.
NOW... we don't have to ask Boyd to reinvent the wheel... we just need to adapt what's already out there.
OK... Now I just got excited. I think this needs to come to life.
Haha! your thought on the 870 is the exact reason I liked the Mossberg idea, I have one!! Plus that makes it easier to pull the measurements from the gun itself for the rear of the main body.
Also, I just ordered this from Midway. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/217...ProductDescrip
I also was able to source out the billet here locally yesterday. Picked up a few pieces to play around with and drew the basic design. Now I just need to find a cheap butt stock for playing around with. All I have is the wood stock here.
Why not a trunnion type arrangement where you have a box (for lack of a better word) made for a specific action (Savage, Remy, LA,SA or whatever)?? The box would drop into a stock that fits the trunnion box regardless of the action length. The box cross bolts into the stock.
Basically one size stock for manufacturing ease and various boxes to house the various action spacings. No need for bedding and should be very accurate. Picture an XLR chassis with a drop in block machined for the various spacings.
Saw one on the web somewhere but haven't been able to find it again......have to work on my Google foo.
Last edited by palerider338; 04-01-2013 at 06:21 AM.
I love the idea...and I know it can happen..but its going to cost a good piece of change and time for programming the machine to do this and most machine shops are nt going to take walkins....I work in a machine and they want to mass produce....they don t want to do a one time job....Ive had a few ideas in the past like alumi nocks for xbows before they even came out..alum triggers for Barnett Quadrant 400s..but the company was worried about liability..so. it went down the tubes...so I d say draw out the plans..talk to a engineer and find a specialty job....goodluck I think it would be an awsome project..
That's a great idea, but I'm not sure how stiff it would wind up being. (because the wood going around the aluminum chassis would be thin) Sure... the aluminum chassis would be stiff to the action, and the rear stock could be tight. BUT... a wood fore end would be wobbly. Unless it still had a full aluminum under chassis... but that would make it heavy, and expensive.
Basically, to accommodate the diffident length, and width actions... AND, barrel contours... the wood overstock would have to be at the size of the largest gun. So... on a light weight, short action... the stock may seem large.
(just thinking out loud)
Although... it could work.
The reason a shop doesn't want a "walk-in" is becasue it takes time to set up a machine to cut a part. And... most of the time the "Set-up" price is added to a batch of parts.
Since you worked at a shop... I'm not telling you anything you don't know... but I figured I'd throw that out for the other guys reading this.
BUT... I'm not sure why the shop wouldn't just make a small batch of the parts, and put them on the shelf.
Last edited by Dr Honda; 04-01-2013 at 09:33 PM.
Agree Dr......
So you don't use a wood fore end. You embed the recoil lug in the aluminum chassis, and then mill a slightly different barrel nut similar to an AR15 barrel nut with internal threads for the barrel, and a set of external threads onto which you screw a free floating handgrip.
Interesting.......
Off the top of your head... do you know what the Axis barrel nut thread is?
To the best of my knowledge (smarter people on the forum, please correct me as required):
Standard shank Savage barrels and receivers (including Axis) are 1.055" x 20tpi.
Standard AR15 barrel threads are 1.25x18tpi.
I think you would have to deal with the extra diameter of a handguard around the barrel by using higher scope mounts and probably a modified cheekrest to move the shooters head higher to deal with the higher scope mounting.
Last edited by thomae; 04-04-2013 at 08:16 AM.
Maybe this will give y'all an idea or 2. After the first stock / tube is completed to prototype status, I'll have UPS pick up & bring here for test & evaluation. Always willing to help my fellow Savage Shooters....
http://www.accurateshooter.com/techn...tion-f-tr-rig/
'Scuse me while I whip this out...!
Cheapshot:
Have you put your hands on one of those Mako stocks yet?? I have a few thoughts:
1) I was just getting a visual on all of this... and it may not fit properly. Basically... I'm thinking that the bolt will hit the top of the stock/mount.
2) How firm are these stocks? The point of the project is to remove flex. But... since the stock only mounts with one bolt... we may run into the problem where the rear stock flexes as you squeeze the trigger. On a shot gun, it's not really a factor.
The Mossburg version may be better since the mount is farther back, but the bolt may still hit it. Lowering the mount would be the solution... but since we are dealing with a built in pistol grip... that needs to be in the proper location. I know it's more work... but I'm starting to think that my original suggestion with an AR stock will work the best. BUT... then the AR grip would also need fitted.
Just thinking out loud.
Havent handled a mako yet.
I dropped off the factory stock and a Mossberg butt stock today to the machinist for him to mess around with and give me some ideas. I see what you are saying about the possible flex in the pistol grip portion but I have a similar stock on a Mossberg 500 and on a H&R handi rifle and have zero flex. As of right now, I don't foresee it being an issue. It very well could be though.
I am not opposed to using an AR setup but if the Mossberg will work it will save cost in the machining, material, and actual cost of the stock and pistol grip itself.
Also, I received my M14 magazine and I am pretty sure that it will work.
OK...
I was going to get the 870 version... but I didn't want to drop $150, and then have it sit. It looks like I can get some AR take-off's cheap. The pistol grip is about $5, and maybe $20~$30 for the stock. I think I'm going to start there.
Post up some pics whenever you get something done.
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