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Thread: Suggested bullet weights for Savage12FTR308

  1. #1

    Suggested bullet weights for Savage12FTR308

    Currently I have nosler 155grain hpbt ie std palma faire. Shooting at 300, 500 (seems especially excellent), 600. 800, 900 and 1000 yds, prone, bipod. Wind on the range is typically <12mph but quite variable in angle and speed so is hard work. Any suggestions for different weights at different ranges? or a different weight altogether?

  2. #2
    Generally speaking, I normally recommend *against* using different bullet weights at different distances - just adds a bit too much opportunity to screw up and grab the wrong box, forget to put the right settings on the scope, or forget to mentally shift gears in terms of wind reading.

    *If* a person were to want to do such a thing anyways... I'd generally recommend one load for 'mid range' i.e. 300-600 and one load for long range i.e. 800-1000. Typically you don't see very many matches stateside (other than the Spirit of America match @ Raton) where you shoot both mid-range and long-range in the same day, much less the same match, so hopefully that would limit the potential for the problems listed above.

    155s tend to shoot very well - in terms of raw mechanical accuracy they are tough to beat. They do give up some in the wind when you start comparing them against 185 and heavier bullets. The catch there is that for those heavy bullets to really be driven to maximum effectiveness, they need to be running in a long-throated chamber - typically one with quite a bit longer throat than the one that comes in a 12 F/TR or 12 Palma at this time. Seating those long heavy bullets down further into the neck tends to reduce the available powder capacity rapidly.

    There are some newer powders such as H100V or 2000MR that can offset some of that effect, as they are much denser powders and you can still get enough powder behind a short-seated 185 to get it going fast enough to be viable (150 fps or more faster than with Varget, in my experience).

    The one thing you DO NOT want to do is have loads with different powders if there is any way at all around it. Its not uncommon for it to take 5-10 rounds for a different load with a different powder to settle in. Unless you feel like burning the extra ammo (and time) during your unlimited sighters @ 800yds (in a Palma course), you'd need to scrub the barrel between loads, fire a few rounds anyway to settle things back in, etc. Very much NOT recommended...

  3. #3
    [QUOTE=memilanuk;169751]Generally speaking, I normally recommend *against* using different bullet weights at different distances

    8><--------

    quite a bit longer throat than the one that comes in a 12 F/TR or 12 Palma at this time. Seating those long heavy bullets down further into the neck tends to reduce the available powder capacity rapidly.

    8><--------

    Thanks for the great reply, do you know if there is any difference in the throat between the FTR and Palma throat? or are they identical? apart from the twist and stock? In NZ there is one Palma available off the shelf. The FTR I have to special order and wait 4 months, but we stop shooting May to September so no biggee. It is also $500US cheaper to get the FTR which I could put into a better scope.

    In NZ we do shoot at all ranges on the same day for but "serious" competition tends to be just one or two per day. What I do see is the wind can be very variable on our range so the heavier projectile might be better. For instance know the 140gr is awful at 500, 600yds and 800yds compared to the 155gr on such a day (like 2MOA worth), hence a wee bit more might be less wind driven.

    I can appreciate the concern on the difference but with different colour ammo cases its no biggee IMHO.

    regards

  4. #4
    The Palma has a slightly shorter throat... probably closer to 0.050" vs. 0.085" for the F/TR. With the Palma I would doubt you'll have much luck with anything over 175gn just due to twist, and with that short throat... even that might be stretching a bit. The F/TR I know can spin a 185 just fine, and in theory might be able to shoot a 200 under the right atmo conditions.

    As mentioned, you might look at alternative powders... Varget (can't recall what Hodgdon calls it down in your part of the world) is the de facto standard, but others do work. Like I said, Alliant 2000MR seems to work well behind the heavy bullets seated a bit short like in the factory F/TR barrel. Hodgdon 100V is another that is in the same general category, and might be more readily available.

    155s, espescially the modern designs like the Berger 155.5BT 'Fullbore', the Sierra 155 MK 'Palma' (the new one, model 2156, not the old 2155), and the HBC 155 all have about as high of BC as you can get in a .30 cal 155 and will get you a long ways down the road with either gun. If you have aspirations of shooting anything heavier than a 155, get the F/TR not the Palma.

  5. #5

    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by memilanuk View Post
    The Palma has a slightly shorter throat... probably closer to 0.050" vs. 0.085" for the F/TR. With the Palma I would doubt you'll have much luck with anything over 175gn just due to twist, and with that short throat... even that might be stretching a bit. The F/TR I know can spin a 185 just fine, and in theory might be able to shoot a 200 under the right atmo conditions.

    As mentioned, you might look at alternative powders... Varget (can't recall what Hodgdon calls it down in your part of the world) is the de facto standard, but others do work. Like I said, Alliant 2000MR seems to work well behind the heavy bullets seated a bit short like in the factory F/TR barrel. Hodgdon 100V is another that is in the same general category, and might be more readily available.

    155s, espescially the modern designs like the Berger 155.5BT 'Fullbore', the Sierra 155 MK 'Palma' (the new one, model 2156, not the old 2155), and the HBC 155 all have about as high of BC as you can get in a .30 cal 155 and will get you a long ways down the road with either gun. If you have aspirations of shooting anything heavier than a 155, get the F/TR not the Palma.
    =========

    Thanks, Ive got more from your 2 posts than in days of trying to google research!!!

    :D

    I guess in a perfect world I'd want both and sit down and shoot a few hundred rounds through and see which does better. Unlike the US higher end savage guns are a rarity so no one I can ask by walking a range. There is a market though, custom gun is $4500NZ v $2300NZ for a savage...the latter I can do, not the former.

    We tend to see ADI powders readily here

    http://www.reloaders.co.nz/index.php...ory&path=37_74

    which are apparantly bought by Hodgdon and re-labled.

    http://www.guncity.co.nz/hodgdon-xidg12018.html

    are typical.

    Sadly only the #2155 is listed, #2156 may not make it here for a while...we tend to be behind the times...

  6. #6
    If I recall correctly, I think AR2206H is ~H4895 here, and AR2208 is what we call Varget. Either that or Varget and H4350...

    If the new SMKs aren't available, I'd pass on the old ones. They shoot great, but kind of like a whiffle ball in the wind.

    Bergers are my preferred option, but they are kind of expensive even here. I'm guessing they are really spendy there.

    I've heard there is a 'local' high quality 155 from HBC... check out Litz's article here for a comparison:
    http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/...lletUpdate.pdf

  7. #7
    Ar2208 is what Im using...45grains, Lapua brass, fed match primer. I havnt really worked an exact load yet, trying to decided on the bullet, once thats done I might wait for the FTR.

    I'll use 1000~1200 rounds a year....it does add up...but our club gets it in bulk and passes the savings on but yes I looking at the US prices for guns n' things and get hacked off.

    eg A Savage FTR is about $13500US which is about $1600NZ I'll have to pay $2300NZ but then I expect only 1 or 2 to be imported a year, most ppl buy barnard action'd guns.

    or Cleaning rods are $180NZ so $150US here, but $45US on sinclairs...



    regards

  8. #8
    HBC, ive not seen that here in NZ, and actually our NRA imports bullets (250k+) in bulk from the USA and issues them to local clubs "on demand". Apart from that what comes in is very limited, basically if its popular enough it comes in, otherwise we are out of luck. Otherwise we ship it in ourselves from the US which is limited due to US export limitations and import limitations here...(NZ police & customs dont like individuals importing gun parts, they tend to impound them if the US authorities havent beaten them to it first off).

    That piece was interesting, clearly pointing to the 1in12 twist in the FTR as being the more modern/interesting gun, I'll try and get 250 of those sieraa 2156's I can but ask.

    Found some!

    http://www.seriousshooters.co.nz/sie...idp292683.html

    :D

    Thanks again.
    Last edited by stevenj; 03-04-2013 at 05:19 PM.

  9. #9
    I've heard similar issues with importers in other countries jacking the prices so high that the market drops to almost nil... either no one ever explained capitalism to those blokes, or they have other conflicting interests in which case one wonders why they are the importer to begin with...

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by memilanuk View Post
    I've heard similar issues with importers in other countries jacking the prices so high that the market drops to almost nil... either no one ever explained capitalism to those blokes, or they have other conflicting interests in which case one wonders why they are the importer to begin with...
    Um, here in NZ the market is very small, so for instance there is 1 Savage 12 Palma for sale and I have to special import the FTR. The Palma has been for sale at least 12months if not longer. Shop owners also pay hvy rent and have to eat on a far lower turn over. Its a double whanmmy of course as NZers earn less than the equiv American...

    A lot of the problems we face is actually the US export restrictions/customs, eg a US gunsmith could make me an accurised custom rifle based on the savage 12 gun for less then the std is for sale here, but he cant justify it based on the costs and paperwork to get it out of the USA. I know others are having issues, like we tried to bring in 5000 ex-mil brass and the US customs confiscated it and destroyed it, we took a huge loss there.



    regards

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