Let's Talk .223 Brass

[ShowMeShooter]

Forgive me for the new guys questions here. I'm new to reloading for accuracy. I used to mix headstamps and load hunting ammo, as long as it was MOA I was happy, and the coyotes didn't seem to care. Now, I have this new found interest in the Factory Hunter class for score they are shooting at the Benchrest Club of St. Louis. I am planning on shooting my .223 Savage. So in preparation I have tumbled nearly all the brass I have. (1 gallon zip-loc stuffed full) SO here I am at the coffee table sorting out this brass by head stamp. When the question occurred to me. I wonder which of these will give me the best results. I figure there really isn't a cut and dry correct answer to this question without testing, but I'm just looking for opinions here hoping to save some headache. So far I have PMC, R-P, Frontier, FC, LC, Win, and some that has unknown marking with 5.56. There is about twice as much PMC as anything else. Is PMC quality brass?

So what is you favorite headstamp?

[stomp442]

The most important thing to worry about is case volume. Full length size and trim each case then weigh each case separately and record the empty weight, then fill with water and weigh again. Subtract the full weight from the empty weight and that will give you the volume of each case. Separate the cases into groups that weigh out within .1 grain and load those for accuracy. Get your self a large medicine dropper to fill the cases with water and use a credit card to scrape off the excess so that the water is even with the case mouth.

[ShowMeShooter]

What do you use to plug the primer hole for this? Old primers? I've already knocked the primers out of all these cases.

[stomp442]

Yes old primers are the ticket.

[ShowMeShooter]

perfect, yesterday was trash day...guess this is gonna have to wait a couple days....gonna have to take my son to the range soon.

thanks for the help.

[seanhagerty]

Go buy a batch of brass. Federal, Winchester and Remington are ok for this, nosler is better, lapua is best.

Set them up so they all go through the same processes together, that way you can see how they behave together. Develop a load for this batch of brass. when you start getting failures (loose primer pockets, split neck or case head seperation) dump them and move on to a new batch.

I have learned the hard way that is better than try to put a bunch of brass together with a different history.

Sean

[ShowMeShooter]

OK so the main thing is that they are all from the same batch and nearly the same capacity.

Is PMC good brass? I have a 300 cases, vs 60-70 each of the other stamps.

[seanhagerty]

I set my brass up in lots of 50 each. So, what ever you have should work.

PMC is brass, just like anything else. Give it a shot, the target will tell if it is any good for you and your rifle.

The one thing I have learned is that I still have a lot to learn about long range shooting.

[jibben]

You can sort your PMC by weight. find an average and cull the heavy and light out

[Apache]

Depending on how serious you are about accuracy.......you need to get batch of brass that is used only for matches and keep records on.

All of the brass you have now is mixed, even the same brand will come from different batches of processing.....different lot numbers. It's too inconsistent for true accuracy work.

I would advise getting a new batch of Lapua brass of the same lot number (if you can find any in 223; 200 cases should be enough to start) and use it for match work only. Keep detailed records of all loads fired with this brass and you will start seeing what loads work with your rifle.

[yobuck]

hunter class is a very good place to start. you get a new beginning with each shot.
one shot dosent necessarily wreck your whole day.
id reccomend just go shoot. use what you have till you have seen what its about.
certainly try to improve on you chances as much as you can.
sort your brass and settle on one type for this. id also see if i could improve upon my loads.
dont go with the idea of winning at this point. just go to enjoy and learn.
watch the winners as to what they are doing and using.
odd are if you stay at it you will be changing guns.

[ShowMeShooter]

Thanks for the responces everyone.

yobuck I plan to do just that. I have no expectations at this point. I just want to go shoot. I certainly want to get the most I can out of this rifle, but seeing how it isn't even home yet. I have a good bit of work to do. I originally had a Savage Axis on lay-a-way at the LGS, a friend is actually buying it for me to trade for a .22 I have. Anyway I went in the shop this afternoon to make a payment for my friend. When I walked through the door there was a fella there asking about the Axis. When the shop salesman told him I had already spoke up for the rifle and it wasn't for-sale, I spoke up and told him to sell the rifle and order me another. SO after the past few days of reading how the Stevens 200 had more stock choices and could be built on much like the other Savages, I chose to have them order me a Stevens in .223.

Now back on subject, I have uniformed primer pockets and sized nearly 300 rounds of PMC brass this evening while watching TV with the kids. I'll trim them all tomorrow when the kids go to school and sort by weight. Anyone know where I can find some match bullets in stock in .22 caliber? I figure I'll start with 69gn and 77gn Sierra Match Kings.

[yobuck]

the bullet weight you want to use might not be what your gun would prefer.
those bullets are on the heavy side for a 223. im not sure of the barrel twist
of the gun youve selected. a 9 twist would work ok wheras a slower twist
would not. id be checking that before you buy those bullets. certainly the heavier
bullet would have an advantage with wind. but it has to shoot well first and foremost.
i have 2 varmit version savages which are the lefty model 12. both have a 9 twist.
1 is a 22x250 ackley in which i shoot 69 gr sierras. the other a 223 in which i shoot
50 to 55 gr bullets. these are strictly varmit hunting guns i dont compete with them.
the 223 is a wonderfull gun to own as it is so versatile.
on the other hand it wouldnt be my choice to compete with. i could see myself getting my
feet wet with one however.
sinclair or midway would have all the bullets. as would no doubt cabellas.

[ShowMeShooter]

yobuck thanks for the heads up.

I have made internet acquaintances with the Chief Ballistician at Sierra these are the bullets he recommends. Also he is sending me some samples to try before I buy anything. I think the Stevens I have on order has a 1:9 twist. We will see how it shoots pretty soon. This rifle is first and foremost my varmint rig. I just plan to get my feet wet in the Hunter Class with it. I 'm still not sure how serious I will get in this competition. A few of my buddies and I are all interested in competing. At this point if I can out shoot them, I'll be happy. That may change as I go, but right now that is the goal. I am nearly done prepping and sorting brass. Now to get on to finding a good load and bullet for this rifle. I also have 200 60gn V-max bullets laying around here. I plan to shoot some of them and find a hunting load as I season the barrel.

[ShowMeShooter]

I would advise getting a new batch of Lapua brass of the same lot number (if you can find any in 223; 200 cases should be enough to start) and use it for match work only. Keep detailed records of all loads fired with this brass and you will start seeing what loads work with your rifle.

As soon as I get everything else I need, I plan to do just that. Thanks for the recommendation. I looked around this evening for some Laupa brass, no luck though. So I printed some test targets, and put a 3 ring binder together for load/rifle notes

[ShowMeShooter]

OK fellas, I have my brass worked and I'm sorting by weight. How much of a variance do you guys allow to keep them in the same batch? .1 or .2 grains or so? exactly the same?

[CJnWy]

3 ring binder together for load/rifle notes

Your off to a good start right there=keep the records and use them!
My current lot of target 223 brass happens to be PMC, it sorted out quite well with a couple light and heavy but most of it ran into the .2 group. The light and heavy I threw into the blasting bin. There was a BAD lot of PMC years ago that the primer pockets where way off but these new ones seam on par with others if not better. I use a lot of Lapua brass but dont bother with the 223 as its my understanding they contract it out.
Nuthing wrong with the 223 and its a favorite varmint case but the 8twist 22-250 and the 20PPC get most of the longer range target work these days......But I started and learned a lot with the 223!

[ShowMeShooter]

CJinWY what was the problem with the bad lot of PMC brass? I would like to save the headache if I could eliminate any of those I might have. I had a few that the primer pockets seemed too deep. After running my primer pocket uniformer in the pocket, it didn't even clean the crud out. I culled these.

[CJnWy]

Good call on culling the deap ones!
The old lot(back in the late 80s early 90s) Had primer pockets the where WAY off center and didnt even work well for varminting. I scrapped all my PMC brass years ago.
A little while ago however I found a large # of 223 brass at the range someone had left. Most of it was PMC and looked good enough to mess with=so I did :-) However in sorting out brass some of that old lot must still be around because I found 2 and rechecked EVERYTHING again before proceeding.Now I have 110 cases of sorted 223 brass that is working great for target work!

[ShowMeShooter]

Awesome! I found one case in this mess that the flash hole was so big it would have just barely and I mean barely had enough lip to catch the primer. I saved it back to snap a photo of, then it's going in the recycle bucket.

I sorted all my Remington brass this morning, and ended up with 68 cases that were within .6gn of each other. I'll start with these.

All these cases are full length sized primer pockets and flash holes uniformed trimmed to length and debured. I don't have a case neck turning tool so this will have to wait.

Should I use these cases for barrel break in and the neck size and turn them after they are formed to my chamber?
Or should I just use the culls for break in? and use full length sized cases for load development?
When loading in the past I full length sized every thing so it would go in any of my rifles and MOA was good enough for my hunting ammo, but my plans are changing for this new rifle.

[stomp442]

I wouldnt even mess with turning case necks, they should all be fine. The maximum differnece I allow in my weights are .2 grains either .1 high or .1 low of a median weight that keeps showing up. I usually end up with at least 3 piles of brass. One large pile of one weight and a slightly smaller pile of another different weight that measures out well and a third pile that doesn't match up with anything and either gets given to a friend or tossed.

[yobuck]

the need to turn necks is not nesassary in factory chambers. some feel the need to (clean them up) by just removing
the high spots. i personaly wouldnt bother. a custom chamber might well need some degree of turning but not always.
take a bullet and insert it into a fired case before resizing. that will show you how tight your chamber is. chances are
there will be little to no resistance in cases from your gun. some shooters mark their brass so that it goes into the chamber
the same way every time. loaded singely of coarse. you can also put rubber o rings under the die lock rings to help with straightening
your rounds. also seat the bullet partially, rotate the case, then seat fully to help there also.

[ShowMeShooter]

thanks yobuck, I tried the fired case test. in my handirifle a bullet just falls in. My Stevens isn't here yet to test.

[bigedp51]

ShowMeShooter

1. Apache below just gave you the best advice on cartridge cases and accuracy, and accuracy is uniform consistency of your cases. And mixed brass from different lot numbers of the same manufacture can cause you accuracy problems.

Depending on how serious you are about accuracy.......you need to get batch of brass that is used only for matches and keep records on.

All of the brass you have now is mixed, even the same brand will come from different batches of processing.....different lot numbers. It's too inconsistent for true accuracy work.

I would advise getting a new batch of Lapua brass of the same lot number (if you can find any in 223; 200 cases should be enough to start) and use it for match work only. Keep detailed records of all loads fired with this brass and you will start seeing what loads work with your rifle.

2. I have two AR15 .223/5.56 rifles and a bolt action Stevens 200 in .223, I also have two standards for my brass and the rifles I shoot them in.

The mixed brass you have I would only use in my AR15s for 100 yard or less practice while standing.

In my bolt action I have 100 brand new Winchester cases from the same lot number, and these were sorted by weight, neck thickness and neck uniformity. This gave me approximately 50 cases worthy of "trying" to shoot bug hole groups.

3. If one to two inch groups are acceptable to you then your mixed brass will be OK, "BUT" because they are not uniform they will never shoot better than your rifle is capable of.

I have three five gallon buckets full of once fired .223/5.56 brass fired by our local SWAT teams and fired in many different rifles. I do "NOT" use any of this brass in my bolt action rifle because it is mixed brass from four different sources. I have one full five gallon bucket of Remington brass and I would still not use it in my bolt action rifle because of mixed lot numbers and being fired in so many different rifles.

Buy a large number of cases from the same lot number and start your accuracy reloading from there. Anything else is nothing but headaches, frustrations and unexplained flyers. Bottom line.............
mixed brass is "hit or miss" in more than one way.

Right now I'm cleaning and processing my Remington brass below and you only see half of it. And "NONE" of it will be fired in my Stevens 200 bolt action, and I'm say this from experience and trying to get bug hole accuracy in my Stevens 200 with my mixed brass.



Below, two five gallon buckets of mixed Lake City and Federal brass, and sore bleeding fingers from removing the primer crimps. :-(



Now go out and buy some Lapua brass and get serious. ;-)

[ShowMeShooter]

thanks for the response bigedp51.
I have been messing with this mixed brass all weekend, and just yesterday I gave up on it, dumped all, except 200 hunting/practice cases in 100 count bags to sell at the LGS. I am looking for 200 new matching lot number cases of Laupa, Norma, Nosler, or Hornady brass. I just can't find any, so I was trying to use what I have. I'll just have to wait until the smoke clears on the panic buying of .223 components.
Even if I find brass, I still can't find any match bullets.