Reply With Quoteis this a new accutrigger rifle with the trigger set light?
I took the new '06 to the range, today, trying to get in its first shots prior to the approaching snow storm. Shot one, cleaned, shot another cleaned, shot another; then went to shoot the 4th and click instead of bang. In years of reloading; I've never had this happen until now. I was trained, somewhere, to wait for 30 seconds, then extract the round. I waited and waited and waited, couldn't get the courage up to open the bolt. The range owner showed up and opened the bolt for me. The firing pin had struck the primer, but, the powder and/or primer hadn't ignited. I shot two more. They shot as they should. These were all fresh Win brass, 51 gns of H380, CCI-250 primers, all behind a Hdy 168 AMAX.
Just curious from those more experienced -
1. What's the correct way to safely handle this?
2. What are the chances of the round going off, after waiting for 1 minute or more, when opening the bolt? (I hear 99.9% it won't.)
3. Best way to protect ones self when extracting the round?
thanks
is this a new accutrigger rifle with the trigger set light?
how would a light trigger cause misfire?Originally Posted by jibben
newbie from gr, mi.
I just bought it, new. Its a Cabelas exclusive M111 with the gray, laminate stock. The accutrigger isn' the lightest or the heaviest in my lot (I have 3 other new Savages). The pull, to me, is just right, now that I think about it....not too heavy.
What primers are you using? I would unload that cartridge and see if there is powder. If the cartridge comes out of the chamber and the bullet is missing, never load another round and fire it.until you check the bore. The primer alone has enough power to send the bullet a ways up the bore. You did everything correctly. Waiting the length of time you did was prudent. You should have heard more than a click if the primer went off.
El Lobo
http://www.savageshooters.com/showth...P-k-won-t-fire
the problem in that thread had NOTHING to do trigger being light, pls read and tell me that I am not crazy.
Here is what the op said about the problem in the thread you mentioned
"I'm pretty sure I found the problem... Same as in this thread. Bolt doesn't close down completely because the cheap front screws of the scope base are too long. I should have noticed that at the range... but I'm new to bolt action.. I'm off to the indoor range now to confirm that this was the problem. "
anyway, back on topic.
op pls post a photo of the base of the bullet showing the primer.
newbie from gr, mi.
The primer was a CCI-250. I use CCI's exclusively. I threw the round away in the can out at the range. The primer looked like or very similar to a fired primer....except it didn't detonate. There was a firing pin dent as you'd normally see on a proper fired case. The round was intact. I shot two more rounds, of my same reload batch and they fired as they should.
In the event it happens again, at some date in the future, what are the chances of it going off, after waiting, when the bolt is opened?
I would say not very likely as it takes a sharp blow to set them off. I would wait a couple of seconds and just eject it while standing on the opposite side of the rifle. You could even prop up your shooting bags over the action on the side you are standing on just in case.
I would also call CCI directly and tell them about it. I'm sure over the years they have dealt with their primers not firing and can give you some more advise.
Always an uneasy situation for sure, but I've yet to have a round go off in my hand or any time after being removed from the gun. More often than not this is caused by a bad primer - more specifically a primer with a defective or missing anvil.
As for how to handle it, the first thing I do is re-cock the rifle and try it again. If it still doesn't fire then it's time to follow whatever procedure your range prescribes for handling such misfires and how they want you to dispose of such "live" rounds. Most will have a special, thick-walled container/drum located near the firing line where such rounds can be deposited. If your range doesn't have one I would suggest you bring the idea up to those in charge rather than just telling people to toss it in the trash. (many rural ranges burn their trash which can get a little exciting if people throw live rounds in it)
Misfires are fairly common with rimfire ammunition - especially the cheaper bulk pack stuff - and after enough of them I guess you just kind of loose that fear/intimidation of handling a "live" round that failed to fire.
"Life' is tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid." ~ John Wayne
“Under certain circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.” —Mark Twain
Classic ball powder and using a standard primer. Switch to a mag primer or switch your powder. If you would have pulled that round apart, the powder would have came out in large clumps. Then someone would have said that the powder was contaminated. What happens is the primer barley ignites the powder. It ends up burning the graphite off of the powder and not the whole powder itself. This turns the powder to a greenish color and clumps. This can also lead to a detonation. The powder detonates instead of burning. Then you may be wearing the gun on your face.
"91", I have had some "ftf's". Useing Federal LG Rifle primers, I got 3 "ftf's" out of 115 reloads. These 3 would not fire after
repeated attempts, & when broken down, the powder had not "flashed" & the primer had not fired. I have never had a CCI primer
fail to fire. Good Luck - Good Shooting .... Jim
Tomme boy: Get real. I suppose you have first hand experience with this?
The CCI-250's are the large rifle magnum primer. I use them and the 450's (small rifle mag) with ball powders, per CCI's recommendations. I use the non mag 200's and 400's with non-ball powders. Since I'm breaking in the barrel, I elected to try and use up some of the H380, since I haven't gotten it to shoot well in any of my other Savages.
I'd pretty much settled on CCI primers, for no particular reason. They are easy to get and I don't relish the idea of starting over with all my good loads by changing components. On the other hand, I notice, between the three brands - CCI, Remington, Federal - there are a few CCI's left, now, in the local stores whereas the Remingtons and Federals are all cleaned out. It seems many reloaders prefer the two other brands of primers over CCI. I've really never given it much thought, but, am now wondering if there's a reason......
beartooth,
Assign whatever value you want to this, it's just my observation. I'm 55 years old and have been an active shooter since I was 8. In 1999, I got bit by the "accuracy bug" and started reloading and shooting quite a bit of centerfire, and since that time, I've loaded for and shot bolt guns in 22-250, 243 Win, 260 Rem, 7mm-08 (2), 7mm WSM, 30-06, 300 WSM (3) and 30-378 WBY, as well as .223 in an AR platform. I have no way of knowing how many rounds down range, but one of my 7mm-08's has >3k round on the current barrel. I shoot something almost every week.
In all that time, I've had 6 FTF's. One was in a a WSM using ball powder and a non-magnum Federal primer (my bad choice after a few hang-fires, I should have switched primers). ALL of the others were with CCI primers.
Whenever I read about FTF's on this and other forums, absent a known mechanical issue, the most common factor is.......CCI primers. I keep reading a general belief, whether true of not I don't know, that CCI's have "harder" cups. Now, when I read a post with FTF in the title, I almost anticipate that it will involve CCI primers. Makes you wonder....
I shoot Federal Match primers exclusively in my LR bolt guns; F210M's for "standard" sized cases or WSM's with stick powders, F215M's in WSM's with ball powder or cases with really large case capacity. I do use CCI primers in the AR platform, but not exclusively, and mine is admittedly, a "plinker".
You may want to consider a change in primers....
ELkbane
Pull the bullet and see if you may have missed charging that particular case. I've never had it happen to me but recently while shooting with a friend he had a "misfire". The primer was indented but the cartridge didn't fire the projectile. Like you we assumed it was a bad primer. I shook the case and noticed no noise and thought the cartridge may not have been charged. Pulled the bullet when we got back to the shop and sure enough; no powder. A primer fired in an empty case without a bullet and without hearing protection is fairly loud but a primer fired in a case with a bullet seated in it and while you are wearing hearing protection is NOT very loud and an uncharged cartridge can be mistaken for a bad primer.
Failures to fire happen very infrequently to me, maybe 1 every year or 2 or 3, or more.
I was also taught to wait before opening the gun. And I do.
I'm 75, been shooting since 1960.
I have had ctgs that went click-bang, where the time between click and bang is part of a second = very short time.
I have NEVER had a ctg go off after failing to fire, in the gun or out. NEVER.
But, I wait for a minute or two before opening the gun after a failure to fire.
joe b.
Yes I do! Ball powder is the hardest powder to ignite. I have had this happen with various ball powder over the years. It was always with CCI primers. And it was always with a lite charge. Want to see some pictures of what i'm talking about?
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...nburned-powder
Here is another.
http://3gn.ar15.com/archive/topic.ht...&f=42&t=358882
I know some diss CCI's, but when I have done my part, I have NEVER had a FTF from a CCI. I say my part, cause if the primer is not FULLY seated, and I suspect that was the case here, much of the firing pins energy is absorbed my seating the primer. And Yes, I have experimented with this many times, using an empty case except for new primer. I was told this by an old (then) gunsmith when I first started reloading (1972) and started having FTF issues.
I have used CCI primers almost exclusively since then. In fact, I just ran through some Winchester primers and had 3 of 20 take 2 firing pin strikes (in a friends Marlin) to make it go bang. All were seated fully, with a hand primer seating tool, I know cause I did them.
As was mentioned, I ALWAYS try it a second time before doing the wait to eject routine. And after 30 seconds, if it has not gone off, it's doubtful it ever will. One other thing that could easily cause a single primer fail to ignite, is the chance of case or bullet lube getting into the primer. Most primer companies will tell you, if you ask, the most common failures are either too shallow seating, or lube or some other obstruction getting into a primer.
I am no expert, with knowledge to end all knowledge on reloading, but since 1972 I have loaded more rounds than many folks shoot in a lifetime, and FTF from CCI primers has never been a concern. And given the choice, I would really prefer a slightly harder primer, over a soft one. Less chance of an accidental discharge from any source that way.
But that's my preference.
Out of the last 15,000+ CCI primers I've used over the last 15 to 20 years, (and at least a couple of thousand Federeal Mil spec for my M1A) I can count the FTF on one hand.
The FTF were "not" defective primers. Comes down to primers not being fully seated in the pocket or, case shoulder being pushed back too far and the firing pin pushes the case forward in the chamber and can't strike the primer hard enough.
Best way to check is pull the bullet and primer and hit it with a hammer.
Had 3 FTF the other day. The next 20 rounds went bang with no problems so I knew it wasn't a primer problem. The FTF primers got the hammer treatment. All went BANG when struck. Don't assume it's defective primers.
And 40 to 50+ years reloading doesn't make you an expert but the experience sure helps.
I'll second Nor Cal Mikie, that primers not being seated fully. Or that they are sticking above the face of the case face. Remember it happening back in the 80's when I had a T/C Contender. It wasn't the gun, it was the fact I had some new 7-30 waters brass that the primer pockets weren't made deep enough from the factory. Also happened last year when I got a 2 new boxes of Nosler 300 WSM brass. Been using Nosler Brass for the last 3 years, and had never had any problems before. But had 3 cases out of the first box that didn't fire while at the range. After getting back home and checking , found the primers were sticking up 2,3,5 thousands high. Primers pockets gust weren't deep enough from the factory.
I reload as well and I have one ftf about 6 months ago. I waited about 30 sec and took it out. Fire pin seemed to had hit it right. I took the round home and guess whuat? no powder... Just like another member mention here, a primer detonation in a case, close gun and no powder is not that easy to hear with hearing protection (plus Im hard hearing anyway). I knew the primer did went off as I could see the black sooth in the bullet and my clean shell was not clean inside no more and after extracting the primer I could see the burning marks it leaves in the primer pocket... Now on I tend to weight every round before it goes into the range box.
NEVER had a round with no powder in it! I double and triple check as the bullet gets seated. Now I have had a case with no primer in place. Powder running out of the primer hole as you pick up the case. (DUH!!)
Any round that FTF gets set aside and as soon as I get home, pulled to see what's going on. Primers are punched out and SMACKED to make sure it's not a primer problem.
My experance is different than Elkbanes. I have been loading since 1965 and now load for about 26 diff. calibers. Other than a short period of time a few years ago when I had some ftf's because of CCI primers and they said they had recalled a lot of them and replaced them I have not had any compliants. I usually buy 5 to 10 thousand at a time since I load for my own rifles and 2 Sons also 2 Grandsons, and I have 7 target rifles of my own and a range out my back door. I have used CCI almost totality for years. The only comp. I shoot is informal but when weather and health permits I shoot almost every day.
Be safe out there,
bythebook
I've had a couple FTF's since I've been reloading. Most memorable one was Remington large rifle primer loaded in a 30-30 case. Shooting a marlin lever action. I cocked and struck the primer 5 times with no bang. Finally took out cartridge and the primer was beat down. Threw the round in the pond.
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