New Member/New rifle with a problem

[SuperKaos]

Hi all, new member here. I live in NC. Long time shooter/reloader of rifles and hand guns. I just purchased a 12FVSS in .308 on the 13th on December.

I have a 200 yd range so I took it out with some base loads and attempted to sight it in @100 yds. I did my usual pull the bolt, eye ball the target and dial in the scope...

Well the after about 3 shots I found the the rounds hitting the dirt about 3' left and 4' low. So I brought it in to 35 yds to try to get it on paper, well it did paper. So from there I went BACK out to 100 to sight it in the rest of the way.

Now the problem, after I have sighted in it I pull the bolt back out, eye ball the target through the bore. Then when I look up at the scope the target is 3' left and 4' low

After that I go to my 200 yd bench, pull the bolt, eye ball the target, now it's 6' left and about 8' low.
Now when I shoot it at 200 I give it 'bout 9 click ups and fire it. All the shots are near center elevation but all 3 to 4" to the right with no wind... So I assume the farther out I shoot the farther right the POI will be?

So basically my bore line is pointing way way off POI.

Let me add I have a Nikon 5X20 Monarch on it, I swapped scopes, mounts and even tried another shooter. And have tired 150, 155, 168, and 175 gr bullets with various charges. After all that is still gives the same results...

[J.Baker]

Take off the scope, rings and bases, then re-install the base screws but leave them sticking up out of the action. Now take a metal yard stick and put it up against the screws.

Do all 4 screws contact the yard stick?
Does the edge of the yard stick get closer to or further away from the centerline of the barrel as you go down it's length?

If the answer to either question is yes then you need to send it back to Savage as either the receiver is excessively warped, the holes were drilled and tapped out of line, or the barrel to action alignment is off and not square.

[SuperKaos]

I have a aluminum 4' dry wall square/straight edge. I'll pull off the scope/mounts and check it...

[stangfish]

You can take that to the bank. As I read your post I was thinking exactly what Jim said.

[SuperKaos]

Happy New Year! I bought a Bad rifle! Yah!

No... Seriously, I removed the scope and mounts and straight edged the screws. And sure enough, after trying a few different ways I found when straight edging the right side the straight edge was about center of the crown. Then edging the left side it was to the left side of the crown...

I would assume that the receiver to the barrel is not square. I don't think it would be the mount holes because once you zero your scope that would put the scope inline with the bore. It still wouldn't be right but the bore POI and scope sight picture would be the same once zero'd

[J.Baker]

Call Savage Wednesday and ask to speak with Joe DeGrande - he's the head of their Customer Service Dept. Great guy to deal with and he'll be sure to take care of ya.

[SuperKaos]

Thanks for the help Mr Furious! I'll call Savage and Tin Star Shooting on 1/2/13. I started testing and breaking in the barrel on the 18th. By the time I got all my findings together, everyone was closed down for the holidays.

I feel much better knowing what is it BEFORE I send it off and wait for an answer. I guess I'll just take out my 12 FCV tomorrow ;-)

[J.Baker]

When you send it in, make sure to include a very detailed letter explaining what the problem is and how you determined that to be the problem so they can check it in the same manner and verify your findings.

[SuperKaos]

Yes I'll do that if it comes to that. I'm calling the dealer first to see if they want to make it right. I purchased it off gunbroker, and I saw that they had a couple of these 12FVSS in .308 for sale. So we'll see... I wonder if it is an occasional problem with Savage or so rare that not many people have heard of? I've been searching the web try to find similar problem just to find an answer to my problem.
I did find this thread but they never gave to reason
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=5&t=372157

[stangfish]

You got your money's worth Super.

[SuperKaos]

Yes I guess I did, for what they get for a 26" SS heavy Barrel it's quite unique! There's nothing like having a rifle that actually aims 6' off your target and hits it.

I just wonder how they get it to do that? One has to wonder, if it's that easy for me to check how does it leave the factory?

Is it a quality control issue, or did it get dropped or bent some how? It is very aggravating due to the time and money I've put into it.
Oh well, all I can hope for is a speedy recovery with out a run a round...

Again, has anyone else seen this before?

[stangfish]

I was refering to the advice from Jim...........It may not be Savage's fault. Could have gotten bent durring shipping. Regardless, in the end you will be satisfied so pull up a chair 'cause this Savage thing is addicting.

[J.Baker]

Ever since touring the factory (2004 I think it was), and seeing what I saw, I've always been a little amazed that Savage's shoot as well as they do due to one particular step in the process.

After the barrel blanks are drilled, reamed and have had the bore rifled, they're sent over to a CNC machine where the outside of the barrel is finished out. The shank threads are cut, the contour is turned and the crown is cut all in one operation.

From the CNC machine it goes over to the "bore inspector" (Ray Silva) who looks through the bore at a special lighted box to check that the bore is straight and uniform. If it's not, he has a little tool there to gently bend the barrel to make the bore straight. Basically it's a craftsman's art of using the reflected light and shadows in the bore to get it perfectly straight. See Page 2 of the 2012 catalog for a pic and description.

After that the barrel heads down the line to have the chamber cut, and then gets racked and awaits being mated to an action.

When the time comes, the "swedger" as Savage calls them mates the barrel an action, sets the headspace, tightens down the barrel nut, and then using a fixture check the barre's runout and align it as necessary. See Page 26 of the 2012 catalog for a picture of this. (the big round press thingy at the very right of the image is the press used to "align" the barrel to the action)


Now here's what baffles me:

When the "swedger" checks and tweaks the barrel's alignment to the action, they use a hand press to push/bend the barrel in the direction it needs to go in relation to the action (which is held firmly in a pneumatic vise). Doesn't this process totally negate the bore straightening done earlier? First we straighten the bore and screw up the outside uniformity, then we try to straighten the outside uniformity and screw up the bore's uniformity.

Talk about running in circles and accomplishing nothing! Even so, most still shoot extremely well so you can't really argue with the end result.

[SuperKaos]

I was refering to the advice from Jim...........It may not be Savage's fault. Could have gotten bent durring shipping. Regardless, in the end you will be satisfied so pull up a chair 'cause this Savage thing is addicting.

Ha hahaha, Ah yes I did, I thought you were referring to the gun...

I've been going through this since for first shot I fired. I knew something was up right then and there. I just continued testing so when I do get to phone them I have all the usual suspects out of the way.

I did give up on it on the 26th of December when I finally got a wind free day to test it at 100 and 200 yds back to back.
And since then been looking for answers to what could be the culprit. So then I came here, so you're right. I got my moneys worth here!
It's aggravating no doubt, but it's also helpful to have the knowledge of the problem in a situation like this. You're right about the Savage thing, I have an old 110 30-06, it's a tack driver @ 100 yds. It's just an old fun gun. And my baby is my 12 FCV in .223. I've only shot it out to 200 yds. But at 200 it plugs the same hole with a Berger 70 power by Varget.

So yes, I'm sure (I hope) in the end I'll be plugging same holes with the FVSS as well.

[SuperKaos]

Ever since touring the factory (2004 I think it was), and seeing what I saw, I've always been a little amazed that Savage's shoot as well as they do due to one particular step in the process.

After the barrel blanks are drilled, reamed and have had the bore rifled, they're sent over to a CNC machine where the outside of the barrel is finished out. The shank threads are cut, the contour is turned and the crown is cut all in one operation.

From the CNC machine it goes over to the "bore inspector" (Ray Silva) who looks through the bore at a special lighted box to check that the bore is straight and uniform. If it's not, he has a little tool there to gently bend the barrel to make the bore straight. Basically it's a craftsman's art of using the reflected light and shadows in the bore to get it perfectly straight. See Page 2 of the 2012 catalog for a pic and description.

After that the barrel heads down the line to have the chamber cut, and then gets racked and awaits being mated to an action.

When the time comes, the "swedger" as Savage calls them mates the barrel an action, sets the headspace, tightens down the barrel nut, and then using a fixture check the barre's runout and align it as necessary. See Page 26 of the 2012 catalog for a picture of this. (the big round press thingy at the very right of the image is the press used to "align" the barrel to the action)


Now here's what baffles me:

When the "swedger" checks and tweaks the barrel's alignment to the action, they use a hand press to push/bend the barrel in the direction it needs to go in relation to the action (which is held firmly in a pneumatic vise). Doesn't this process totally negate the bore straightening done earlier? First we straighten the bore and screw up the outside uniformity, then we try to straighten the outside uniformity and screw up the bore's uniformity.

Talk about running in circles and accomplishing nothing! Even so, most still shoot extremely well so you can't really argue with the end result.

WoW! that does seam kooky! Ya know when I straight edge the barrel. (been doing that all night and all morning) it seems it starts shortly after the receiver. May be they flinched on the "swedger" handle when doing mine

[J.Baker]

Honestly, my guess would be that somehow the threads in the action to accept the barrel were cut out of alignment (action was cocked in jig), then when they checked alignment with the barrel installed they had to really tweak it to get it it within spec. Whatever the case Joe will take care of ya.

[SuperKaos]

I just got a response from the dealer, "Give Savage a call tomorrow and they will take care of it."

[Speedrat1]

Now here's what baffles me:

When the "swedger" checks and tweaks the barrel's alignment to the action, they use a hand press to push/bend the barrel in the direction it needs to go in relation to the action (which is held firmly in a pneumatic vise). Doesn't this process totally negate the bore straightening done earlier? First we straighten the bore and screw up the outside uniformity, then we try to straighten the outside uniformity and screw up the bore's uniformity.

Talk about running in circles and accomplishing nothing! Even so, most still shoot extremely well so you can't really argue with the end result.

From what you're saying they straighten the barrel then straighten how the barrel sits in the action. While it's possible I rather doubt they're actually bending the barrel itself once again but rather correcting how all the accumulated tolerances sit with each other. There is more "slop" in the barrel thread/receiver thread/barrel nut thread than a person might think in my opinion. By the time you put it all together the only option that works to make any corrections would be to press it as you describe. I know this is just my opinion but I don't think at that point of assembly they are trying to bend anything per sec into compliance. I'm not sure I agree with pressing to straightness rather than an annealing perhaps hammer process but like you say in it's price range the Savages are certainly one of if not the most accurate. Serves the purpose.

[J.Baker]

You may be right, but they sure do put plenty of umph into it when they do it. Also, how much tolerence is there really going to be in the mating barrel shank/action threads? The headspace will only move maybe 0.002-0.003" when you torque down the barrel nut, so there isn't that much slop there.

BTW, here's a better pic of the operation I got when touring the plant.

[J.Baker]

BTW, this nice lady is also one of the "gorilla's" who puts on and torques the barrel nut. (for those who insist they use gorilla's at the factory and that's why they're so hard to get off)

[Speedrat1]

Nice gorilla...... nice gorilla Just kidding! She shows those arms work for a living though! Thank much for the pic, helps to see the setup for sure. If as you say they're clamping the receiver tight - with the indicator where it is they may well be bending the receiver square with the barrel.... it will bend first where she's pushing. I'm probably not expressing this all that well but the way it's setup the final result as I see it is a straight "assembly"

[Apache]

Now that's an arbor press!!!

[tyler.woodard04]

I know a guy who recently chucked up a sporter barrel in a fix to make an alignment jig for bedding an action. He said it was scary how far out of true it was

[SuperKaos]

Well the rifle's box'd up and headed to Savage tomorrow. I didn't speak to Joe, a Cynthia handled it. I explained all my findings to her. Her interpolation of it was "won't target" by the ref. note on the shipping label.

The label is addressed to her so she will be the CS rep handling my issue. The are very willing to take rifles in it seems, it almost seemed as if they were waiting for my call.

So we'll see what happens from here...Thanks for your help guys!

[lago]

This sounds like the same problem that I had with my .223 FVSS that I got early last year ago. When I got it on paper at 100 yards, I didn't have enough clicks left to increase elevation at a longer distance. I was able to correct the windage by shifting the rear scope mount and fixed the elevation problem with 2 or 3 strips of plastic electrical tape. I am still in warranty but I don't know if I want them to mess with it since it shoots so good.
Lago