Barrel break in ???

[acemisser]

So just because the persnickety benchrest crowd does something automatically means it has meaning and must be beneficial? Oooooooooooook!

Reality Check: The reason benchrest shooters typically clean after every relay is they also usually shoot several sighters in each relay and in most barrels (from my own experience and that of others) the accuracy will typically start to taper off after somewhere between 20 and 30 rounds. For them, the N'th degree of accuracy is the name of the game so if there's a snowballs chance in hell that doing something might help them cut 1/1000th of an inch off their group size they'll do it and swear by it like it's the gospel.

As for whomever informed you that you'd be lucky to get 1,000 rounds from your 22-250 barrel, they obviously didn't have a clue what they were talking about. Even a fast twist 22-250 Ackley Improved barrel will surpass 2,000 rounds with ease. I have close to 1k through mine now and last we bore-scoped it it still wasn't showing the first sign of any real wear in the throat - and that's pushing 80gr Noslers at 3300fps.

I shoot in F class open and aganist several 6mmBR's So I guess I could say that it is the F class shooters that said my 22-250 would have a very limited barrel life....I have beat some of them with the home made set up....And living on a some what fixed income,barrel life is very impportant to me...I want to get all I can out of a barrel..I also use not so hot powders to keep the barrel heat down as low as possible and still buck the wind....So I want to keep my barrel clean and if it makes for longer life,then it's worth it..To me anyway..

[Apache]

Acemisser, you seem like a really nice guy and you're learning pretty fast for the amount of time you've been here........but you fail to have the qualifications that Mr Furious and MANY others on this forum do. While I don't want you to stop posting your OPINION on various matters you need to understand that these guys have done this for a VERY long time.......not to mention the relationships they have developed with others that are VERY qualified to give QUALIFIED answers too.

I'm not stupid when it comes to Savage rifles either, but when it comes to these type of things, I yield to their superior knowledge. My experience is more in the wildcat arena and some types of reloading techniques. Even then there are others here that I yield to their superior knowledge.

It's nothing personal, one man knows more about a subject than another. That's life.

Just don't take it personal.

[J.Baker]

I don't know if I'd classify myself as someone to listen to, but that's my opinion and it clearly varies from the typical monkey-see/monkey-do benchrest voodoo. At the end of the day it's your barrel and it all boils down to what you choose to believe and what sets your mind at ease and/or gives you confidence in the barrel's accuracy.

I guess you missed this post of mine Apache. LOL

Believe me, I'm not the Obi-Wan-Kanobi of the gun world and I sure as heck don't know everything there is to know about guns, hunting, shooting, cleaning, etc. - FAR FROM IT! However, I've also been hunting and shooting since I was big enough to squeeze the trigger on my dad's old Ruger Super Bearcat trapping pistol while out trapping fox, muskrats and raccoons with him when I was 4 and 5 years old. In the 34-35 years since then I've learned a few things - some things from personal experience and some things from paying attention to and heeding the knowledge and experience of my betters. I share what I know when the opportunity presents itself, and whether people choose to listen or learn from that information is their choice. I'm not going to try to ram anything down anyone's throat or go out of my way to convince them I'm right as I have better things to do than argue over something I already know for myself.

As I said above, this (barrel break-in) is a very subjective subject and everyone will have their own view and opinions on the matter. If whatever theory someone subscribe to makes them feel a little better and/or gives them a little more confidence in their gun, so be it - keep doing it if that's what works for ya.

My tongue-in-cheek response above regarding the monkey-see/monkey-do benchrest crowd and the habits of many in that shooting circle is based on my own experience and observation. Up until about 10 years ago I'd never even heard of benchrest, much less knew anything about it. I can tell you this though - the rifles I had owned before I knew what it was were just as accurate beforehand as they were after, and even after experimenting with some of the persnickety benchrest processes with my cleaning and reloading regiments I never saw a noticeable change in accuracy to justify all the extra time and work I was putting into it. So, I went back to my old basic, simple routine of not worrying about sorting bullets and cases by weight, cleaning my bore after every shooting session, etc. Know what - the degree of accuracy is still right where it's always been.

[bigedp51]

Many of you have heard the saying more barrels are damaged by cleaning than any other cause.

I collected the British Enfield rifle and every book and manual on the rifle I could find.

After the Enfield rifle was shot two pints of boiling water were poured down the bore followed by a oiled patch on a pull through. This would remove the corrosive salts and any carbon in the barrel.

The Armourers inspected these issued rifles four times per year and if the bore had excess copper buildup the "armourers" mixed up some copper solvent and "they' were the ones who cleaned the bore.

The Armourers did not remove the copper unless the tight fitting bore gauge below would not pass from end to end of the bore.



There is no such thing as barrel break in, and all I do on my milsurps and new rifles is give them a squirt of foam bore cleaner and as "FEW" passes with a cleaning rod as possible.

Now how are you going to break in any barrel in the video below. One is smooth as glass and the other is as rough as a cob.

Lilja BoreScope Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf9zZqn00CA

Foam bore cleaner



New hand lapped barrel.



"Savage" button rifled barrel before and after fire lapping.



Throat of button rifled barrel.



And one inch from the muzzle.

[acemisser]

All the above comments are valued,no doubt..But I have to say I still disagree with some of them...As I had mentioned in another post,I had talked with the fellows at Hodgon,as well as barrel manufactor's and they all told me that barrel life will be improved with cleaning the carbon out of the chamber,etc...Also the primers can be at fault as well,due the grit from them..I use mostly the foam cleaners and patch's....I did have one rifle in my 60 plus years that would shoot,better if dirty...That was a Winchester 788 in 30/06 caliber..

I appreciate all the replies from you guys..Not saying your wrong or right...I know my 22-250 does shoot a lot better after I clean it..That is after about 50 rounds have been put thru it,But I have never gotten copper out of it..This is a shilen barrel....John

[J.Baker]

John,

The main point I try to convey is that just because something is considered or recommended or has become the norm or has been the norm for decades doesn't necessarily make it fact. If there's one thing I know about guns it's that there's a lot of information out there that's based solely on common popular beliefs and practices that have been perpetuated for generations. For centuries everyone thought the world was flat - no one questioned it, that was the "fact" because it's what everyone had been taught to believe. Then along came someone who challenged that belief and low and behold they proved it wrong and history as we all know it was rewritten. People also used to commonly believe that the sun revolved around the earth, but that "fact" has changed as well.

Barrel break-in is a perfect example of the same in the gun world. Do you know why most every barrel maker post some type of recommended break-in regiment on their website or includes it with their barrels? Ask most any of them and (if they're being completely honest) they'll tell you it's because they got tired of so many people calling asking for one that they just put something together to appease those who insisted they needed it. IIRC it was Dan Lilja who was the first to openly make that confession many years ago, and in more recent years Gale McMillan has been pretty vocal on a forum or two about how the barrel break-in myth is just a way for barrel makers to get shooters to wear out their barrels faster so they have to buy another one.

It's the same thing with the mythical "action screw torque" that so many people here are always so concerned about. I've asked several engineers at Savage about this mystical torque value over the years and every one of them gave me the same answer - they made it up so the gals answering the phones would have a value to tell customers when they called and asked. The truth is it's more important that you are consistent with how tight you tighten your action screws than what the actual torque value is. But you can't tell people that - oh no! That's not what they read in a magazine or what their gunsmith told them or ...well, you get the point. As long as they're tight enough to securely hold the action in the stock and not loosen from firing they're tight enough, but you may find tightening them to a specific value unique to your rifle may have a small effect on accuracy. Find what value your guns likes and then make sure that's what you tighten them to every time you remove the action from the stock.

Biged makes a valid point as well - more barrels are damaged by poor or improper cleaning techniques than any other method out there. The more you clean the bore, the more opportunities you have to do damage.

[stangfish]

Biged makes a valid point as well - more barrels are damaged by poor or improper cleaning techniques than any other method out there. The more you clean the bore, the more opportunities you have to do damage.

I hold testament to that.

[bigedp51]

I "HAD" a large collection of milsurp rifles and got tired of cleaning frosted and pitted bores from the effects of shooting corrosive ammunition. Actually I sold them for two reasons, my old eyes couldn't see the iron sights anymore and I wanted to get some new scoped rifles with "new" bores. Two of the rifles I bought were Stevens 200 and there was "NO" break in and after shooting them they got a squirt of foam bore cleaner and then I let them set for an hour or two. I then used two or three patches to remove the foam and also oil the bore.

If you would go to a AR15 forum you would be shocked at the minimum amount of cleaning done and the large amount of rounds that go "rapidly" down the bore.

KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid

Let the foam bore cleaner do its work, the foam doesn't have any sharp edges to harm your bore.
Spare the rod and spoil your bore.

Barrel break in is a myth and in our Enfield forums the British would hear how anal we Americans are about cleaning the bore and the Brits would say "Just shoot the Bloody thing". To this day the Brits still pour boiling water down the bore, followed by an oiled patch and call it quits.

Now go pick up the latest Hodgdon's reloading magazine and read about CFE powder (copper fouling eraser) and see the bore scope photos of a copper free bore. The powder puts a chemical coating on the bore that keeps the copper from sticking.

[acemisser]

Is it possible for a wood dowell used to push a patch through to do damage to the bore when run through from the breech?

It is mainly all I use,since I got used to using wood with my black powder cartridge rifle's.....

[acemisser]

The proximity of powder fouling and copper fouling to the bare bore metal sets the stage for bimetallic/electrolytic corrosion, which we interpret as pitting.

When this foul brew combines with atmospheric moisture, it creates a low voltage electrical current flow/ion transfer that promotes oxidation, in a process similar to that of a dry cell battery. As long as there is a bimetallic interface and fouling with any degree of acidity or alkalinity, this process will start as soon as the atmospheric moisture and oxygen succeeds in penetrating to the bimetallic interface. This is why you should clean out the fouling and establish a protective coating that can block moisture penetration, or at least effectively oil the bore between shooting the session.

This regimen used to be basic military shooting and cleaning doctrine. You would shoot one day, and clean on each of the three succeeding days, because the metallic crystalline structure traps fouling and gas, which emerges as the gas seeps out over the first few days following shooting. It's not gremlins, and it's not mental lapse that turn a clean bore into a dirty one overnight. It's just the natural sequence of events which are driven by the pressure cycles that occur during shooting session. Or at least that's the way it was explained to me some decades ago.

This is all very trite, but it's also true enough. I agree with many that over cleaning is destructive, especially if done improperly, and do suspect that the shoot one, clean three regimen is a bit excessive.

But by the same token, I also fail to see what fundamental change has occurred in the shooting process that eliminates the need for bore maintenance. That's why I occasionally remark that the old methods I learned 'back when' have not stopped working for me. Bore scoping shows that with care in the cleaning process, bore status remains acceptable and the only real issue is throat erosion due to the actual firing heat/pressure cycle itself.

Accuracy may hold up, and that's all well and good, but I'm not hearing much about the corrosive effects of bore neglect. It may well be that such oxidation is actually unrelated to accuracy degradation, I honestly don't know, but I also feel that a valuable firearms deserves at least rudimentary maintenance and care, even if for nothing more than the standpoint of pride in one's possessions.

The only time I don't clean and oil my bores after each shooting session is during hunting season, so my preseason zero is not affected by the bore's cleaning/fouling status. Right now, I am in the process of cleaning seven rifles/shotguns/frontstuffer preparatory to laying them up for our local Winter shooting hiatus.

Greg



Given the simplicity and availability of bore cleaning foam products, cleaning has become so easy that it makes little sense to me not to clean after a day's shooting.

Greg_________________________Borrowed from the snipers hide forum.thought some might want to read this as well....some interesting reading...

[stangfish]

After pushing a patch throu the bore after every match along with some bore cleaner I decided I was way over cleaning. It is a hand lapped bore, some may need it...most of mine don't.

[bigedp51]

acemisser

I don't blame you for wanting to take care of a custom made barrel, I just believe in "less" is more and why I like the foam bore cleaners. Good luck with your new barrel.

For the other readers with factory barrels that are button rifled some of these barrels will "eat" a bore brush and give a false positive copper reading. The foam bore cleaning products will do wonders and requires minimum cleaning rod time. I also use more aerosol cans of of carb cleaners to blast the carbon out of the bore. But if you let the foam cleaners sit overnight they will remove more carbon also. Kroil also cleans and removes carbon and can be left in overnight and this oil creeps into every nook and cranny.

If you like cleaning rifles then get an AR15, its gas system blows the cyclic gas back into the receiver and are run "wet" to catch all the crud.


Barrel Cleaning Procedures
The Great Debate--Brushing and Cleaning Intervals

http://www.accurateshooter.com/techn...eaning-debate/

Bore Cleaning Methods and Materials
How to Clean Your Barrels with Less Effort and Better Results

http://www.accurateshooter.com/techn...and-materials/

[darkker]

..As I had mentioned in another post,I had talked with the fellows at Hodgon,as well as barrel manufactor's and they all told me that barrel life will be improved with cleaning the carbon out of the chamber,etc...

On this specific line, I have a question for you; This IS NOT to be argumentative, rather as a talking point only.

Hodgdon is not a powder maker(smokeless), they are a surplus blender/ reseller. Isn't it a little odd, your powder company is your barrel authority??
On the other side of that, Given ADI's extruded powders way of rapidly developing "hard Carbon" fouling, I am not surprised in the least that they recommend frequent cleaning.

If you have a gun that shoots better clean, then by all means clean it. But that in and of it's self is not directly related to "break-in" as per the title of the thread.

[acemisser]

Hodgdon is not a powder maker(smokeless), they are a surplus blender/ reseller. Isn't it a little odd, your powder company is your barrel authority??

Thats a stupid remark....If they produce the powder they shoould know what is involved to clean it out of a barrel...

And you right about having nothing to do with barrel break in....But I suppose it can be included in the same thing..
Shoot and clean....no matter what you all have to say I am gonna continue to clean my barrel with the foam cleaner
and keep a tally on number of shots I will find out if my barrel life improves or not....

[Apache]

Ace,

That is by far the best thing to do. Do it your way - then you will have personal experience concerning the matter and can then advise accordingly.

Darkker,

I haven't heard about ADI and excessive hard carbon fouling. Is this first hand knowledge? Tell me what you can.

[J.Baker]

Hodgdon is not a powder maker(smokeless), they are a surplus blender/ reseller.

You might just want to check your facts on that. It's true, Hodgdon started out as a simple reseller of surplus military powders after WWII, but things have changed a little over the years and they now own a couple different powder manufacturing companies. This is an excerpt taken straight from Hodgdon's website. ( http://www.hodgdon.com/history.html )

To better serve our reloading customers Hodgdon Powder Company continues to grow. Hodgdon purchased IMR® Powder Company in October 2003. IMR legendary powders have been the mainstay of numerous handloaders for almost 100 years. IMR powders continue to be manufactured in the same plant and with the same exacting performance criteria and quality assurance standards that shooters have come to expect.

In March 2006, Hodgdon Powder Company and Winchester® Ammunition announced that Winchester® branded reloading powders would be licensed to Hodgdon. Winchester smokeless propellants, the choice of loading professionals, are available to the handloader to duplicate the factory performance of loads from handgun to rifle and shotgun.

In January 2009 Hodgdon acquired an American icon GOEX Powder, Inc. GOEX has a rich history dating back to 1802 where E.I. Du Pont de Nemours broke ground on his original black powder plant along the Brandywine River in Delaware. Goex Powder, Inc. manufactures black powder used for sporting applications such as civil war re-enactments and flintlock firearms, and is a vital component for industrial and military applications. Located in Minden, Louisiana, GOEX Powder, Inc. is the only U.S. manufacturer of black powder.

Hodgdon, IMR and Winchester smokeless propellants and Goex black powder continue to introduce many new, innovative, technologically advanced and unique propellants to the marketplace. Today, as over the last sixty five years, the success of the Hodgdon Companies depends upon the good will and satisfaction of our loyal customers. Thank you for the trust you continue to give our products; we only hope that they are a part of the reason you enjoy your chosen sport of hunting or shooting.

[squirrelsniper]

I doubt I'll clear anything up, because I've tried it before, but...

1. Whether it's a new barrel or a complete new rifle, clean the bore before ever firing a shot. You'd be surprised what comes out of some of them, especially factory barrels (not just Savage, but all of them).
2. Shoot.
3. When accuracy becomes unacceptable or you just think it needs to be cleaned, clean the bore.
4. Repeat steps 2 & 3 for the life of the barrel.

I've had the opportunity to shoot a lot of new barrels, whether just a barrel or a completely new rifle, and I've tried a lot of stuff just to see if I could make a barrel shoot better. But I have NEVER, repeat NEVER, seen a barrel start shooting better after a certain number of rounds or a certain method of "break-in." You may tweak loads, bedding, crown, or whatever and help the rifle shoot better later on, but as far as the bore's interior itself is concerned, the first few rounds you send through it are as good as it's going to be.

As for cleaning being easier with a break-in... maybe with a factory barrel. But the cleaning typically becomes easier after a couple hundred rounds whether you use a "break-in" method or not. If you want your cleaning to be easier, every 100rds or so just clean the snot out of the bore with JB Cleaning Compound so you get "everything" out of it, but that seems to make even the clean freaks shudder at the thought.

My $.02 (that no one will listen to, except for those who already agree with me).

[Samdweezel05]

Step one: remove new barrel from packing and install on desired action
Step two: drive to range
Step three: Shoot until no more ammo remains
Step four: Go home and clean barrel if you feel like it, either way go shoot it again tomorrow.

I have never done any barrel break in on any of my new savage or aftermarket barrels. I bought them to shoot, not to clean.

[bigedp51]

You might just want to check your facts on that. It's true, Hodgdon started out as a simple reseller of surplus military powders after WWII, but things have changed a little over the years and they now own a couple different powder manufacturing companies. This is an excerpt taken straight from Hodgdon's website. ( http://www.hodgdon.com/history.html )

Hodgdon"s is licensed to use the IMR and Winchester name, the actual powder manufacturing plants belong to General Dynamics Weapons Division. Please look at the MSDS sheets at the Hodgdon's website.

Some of the IMR powders are made in Canada, and some are made in Australia. The H prefix powders are also made in Australia and the Winchester powders are made by St Marks Powder.

Bottom line, Hodgdon's is mainly a distributor.

[darkker]

Darkker,

I haven't heard about ADI and excessive hard carbon fouling. Is this first hand knowledge? Tell me what you can.

You might just want to check your facts on that.

Hodgdon"s is licensed to use the IMR and Winchester name.

Bottom line, Hodgdon's is mainly a distributor.

Bigedp51 is correct. As he stated, LOOK at the MSDS sheets, or call them yourselves; I do have my facts correct.
No, Ace; I don't think it's a stupid comment, they don't make any of it. They are well known in the powder world, for swapping suppliers in true least-costing fashion. Also don't know that they want everyone to know that their powder CAN lead to a fouling problem...

Hodgdon also says this:
http://www.hodgdon.com/new_prod.html - "The technology developed for the U.S. Military that greatly deters copper fouling is now available in CFE223 for your reloads!"
Well, actually that was developed by the French Military in the 1800's, It is a series of Tin compounds, with whispers of a Bismuth compound. Hatcher's Notebook speaks of it's development. It is ALSO true that those compounds(while not in the same amounts) have been (according to my copies of the MSDS) in Win 760 and Win 748 for OVER 20 years! If you mean that CFE was developed for the US military, then yes it was around 10 years ago; GD calls it SMP-842. They developed it for the Non-toxic 5.56 round. - http://www.gd-ots.com/2011%20Brochur...ropellants.pdf

Winchester(Olin) sold their powder manufacturing plant in the Early 2000's(few years before they sold their brass cartridge mfg business). Sold to General Dynamics, that plant is in St. Marks, Florida. The IMR plant in Canada is ALSO owned and run by General Dynamics. ALL IMR extruded powder that shows "Made in Canada" is from there, Whereas ALL Winny/Hodgy BALL powder is made in St. Marks. MOST of Hodgy's extruded comes from ADI. Hodgdon DOES NOT MAKE 1 OUNCE of smokeless gunpowder.
So where DOES your powder come from?

General Dynamics (American defense Contractor that makes all Canadian-made IMR rifle powders, all Winchester Ball powders, some Accurates, and Hodgdons ball powder)
ATK (American defense contractor that apparently makes all American-made Alliant powders)
Thales (French defense company that owns ADI, makes all of Hodgy's "Extreme" rifle powders, plus some IMRs)
Rheinmetall (German owner of Nitrochemie. Makes Reloder-17. Don't know about other commercial powders)
Groupe SNPE (French State-owned. Makes all Bofors (most of the Reloder line, and the Norma line), Vihtavuori, and Ramshot powders via their Eurenco layer)
Interestingly, ATK is now in a JV with G.D. GD is streamlining the running the Radford Arsenal. SO any powder production may have been moved to the GD plants, but I have yet to confirm that.

Doesn't anyone else remember that Win 748 was THEE benchrest powder in the 223 with 55gr bullets; also considered MAGIC in the 308?? Didn't anyone else find it ODD that load info for those cartridges are all but gone? What info that is still available from Hodgy is HORRIBLY low pressure?? Well I noticed, so I called them. They are in a contract dispute with Olin over "who is responsible for what" for the Winchester branded powders. So they posted what was last provided to them, FROM Olin. They were VERY quick to say that the data was "So old, we don't have any idea WHEN it was tested". So the data disappeared.

Apache,
"Hard Carbon" Yes I have first hand knowledge, No not a New event exactly; many folks finally realizing(with bore scopes even) what I have been raving about for years.
I was one of the first folks who jumped on a (Then)brand-new cartridge named the 204 Ruger. Varget was the magic Extreme powder. My groups began to go from touching, to "Where the hell did that one go??!!" Only not just huge groups, there was no rhyme or reason to when or why they would be wild. I used every cleaner known to man, with every brush known to man. I got tired of it and started making phone calls. It was first Sierra that turned me onto the issue, confirmed by Western Powders. At the time(2004-05-ish) Sierra said that the "Newer generation extruded powders tend to cause this hard carbon issue rather quickly, the smaller the bore; the faster it appears". Specifically told that the "extreme" line of powders was a little worse than the rest. The Sierra Tech told me to get some JB bore paste, or other abrasive and scrub until I wanted to cry.
I found what he said I would, after MANY passes I began to see what looked like tiny pieces of flat ball powder. That stuff is as hard as iron!! Most recently it has given a fellow member on Shootersforum, this issue in rings just past the throat on his rifle; IIRC it was BKeith. He actually did verify the issue with a Bore Scope.


I'll take my lashings for the off-tracking now

[Apache]

Darkker,

Very nice and thorough explanation. As I understand it the only real cure for carbon fouling is abrasive compounds - JB Bore paste, flitz....Have you found a method to keep it under control?

[Dennis]

I clean a new barrel very well before shooting it, fire a couple rounds, clean again, and call it good enough. I have tried the long break in before. You know, fire one round, clean it, fire two rounds, clean it, fire three rounds, ect. I can't see any difference.

I totally agree with the above. Clean good before shooting, 5 shots, clean again, repeat, then start shooting. I clean my McGowen barrels about every 150 rounds using WipeOut. All are very accurate and I have almost no blue coming out of the barrel after cleanings.

I do believe after 50 rounds the barrel is at it's comfort point.

JMO, Dennis

[darkker]

Darkker,

Very nice and thorough explanation. As I understand it the only real cure for carbon fouling is abrasive compounds - JB Bore paste, flitz....Have you found a method to keep it under control?

Quite honestly, since I switched back to GD's ball powders, I haven't had that problem.
Because of a recent post, BKeith who refuses to change powders, hasn't found anything to work except the abrasives.

[Geo_Erudite]

Best article on breaking in a barrel

[bigedp51]

Best article on breaking in a barrel

I hit the reload button three times on your link thinking the page didn't fully load.

Then I realized the page was a photo of a polar bear in a snow storm. :-)

(Very true and very funny)