Disclamer: I am not "flaming" anybody, nor suggesting intentional fabrication. Just looking for acurate reporting. (pun intended) I am not including BR rifles or shooters.
History: I have pursued super accurate sporting rifles for nearly 60 years, starting with a Wallak and Holmes 722 in 222 Rem. and I presently have a Hart stubbed Encore in 7-08AI Rimmed, plus several custom barreled Savage 110's. Probably have owned 100 rifles and I can count on one hand the number what were honest MOA rifles. Now MOA to me is 5 shots in 1 inch at 100 yards or 5 shots in 2 inches at 200 yards....everyday, all day. Not once in the life of the rifle! I realize MOA continues ~, however, I believe anything over 200 yards becomes moot, scope quality and power plus the ability to read the wind and EXPERIENCE are the limiting factors rather than gun quality. And, to me, sporting rifles are limited to 10-12 pounds.
Yesterday we had a little friendly benchrest competition between 12 serious rifle shooters, A Browning A-Bolt was the only "stock" rifle in the bunch. (most were 700's, all with trigger work, most with bedding and barrel work) There was no rifle over 11 pounds (9 was probably the average). The scopes were Luppy or Weaver quality, 12X to 24X. Calibers 223 to 30. (most 7mm) Wind flags at 50 yards, no sighters, 3 shot group at 200 yards with a 3 minute limit. (most shot in<2 min.) We all used spotters. The 10 ring was 2 inches, we did not have one 30, the winners had 29's. The groupes averaged 3 inches, a couple 2 inch, there was not a 1 inch group all day long. I will not bore you with the quality of the shooters, except they were all "capabale". Better than 95% of the shooters you see at a normal range.
I continue to read about and see pictures of 3's,4's and 5's out of stock rifles right out of the box. Never any mention of loading technique, or scope or front rest and usually not even the range. Now, let's see, a 5 is 5 shots in1/2 inch plus the caliber or 3/4 inch with a 25 caliber at 100 yards or 1 and 1/2 inch at 200 yards. A 3 cuts that almost in half! Darn good shooting.
Question: Am I the only guy in the world that has not taken a rifle out of the box, slapped a 4X Tasco on it and put 20 shots in one hole at 500 yards with ammo I had laying on the bench?
Request: Please, when you report one of these phenomenal groups, tell us your loading bench technique, the scope, the rest, the weight and what you have really done to the rifle. OH.....the number of shots in the group. I am still trying to learn!
Respectfully,
Bill
I've never seen a factory rifle that was submoa immediately out the box. With a very specific load, and using afront rest.. I can eek it out of one of my rifles. My savage needs a LOT of work to get it there.. the action isnt even tight in the stock with it fully tightened down.. I've had several that were 1.5 - 1.75 moa with factory ammo, and I suspect that with very careful loading I could get it down to about 1 moa..
Bill,
As far as the results you have listed, what come to mind is it was a 3 inch day. This is why I like to shoot with other shooters, when you dont shoot good, you can see what the others are doing and judge your shooting with theirs. There is just days where you will shoot better than others. case in point; we shot the NBRSA Eastern Finale at Shelby Deer hunters, at the time we was getting the begining of hurican Sandy, in attendance was some of the best benchrest shooters in the Eastern United States, with 2 hall of fame members, and many that have points for hall of fame, with the Eastern division shooter of the year also there. Now with all of this we shot at 200 yards, with the best equipement money can buy, on that day a group around 1/2 inch was something amazing, and most shooters was hoping to keep all of there shots at just under 1 inch. There was some big groups shot that day, now on a good day these same shooters would average shots in the .3 to .4 area with some groups going even smaller. I know this is an extream example, but it goes to show that the conditions of the day will dictate the size of the average groups shot. You could do this same test on another day and you will get entirly diferent size groups. There has been days I thought I shot like crap, but ended up winning the match just because I was shooting better than I thought considering the conditions. I dont like shooting under 100 yards, unless it is a rimfire, so with that said I will usualy shoot at 100 yards.
Now with all of that said, I will state my findings with Savage rifles. When I shot groups I only shoot 5 shot groups, the only exception is with load developement I will shot 3 shot groups, or if I am low on target space, or realy want to see how a rig preforms I will shoot 10 shot groups. As far as load developement, I never shoot factory ammo, and I always tune the ammo to the rifle. I usualy set up my loading press, right beside me when I am doing load developement. I start with research, and pick an appropriate powder for the cartridge, if many are having luck with a certain powder in a certain cartridge I will try it first, no need to re-invent the wheel. I also pay attention to what Sierra's load book list as it "accuracy load." I have usualy had good luck with that. I usualy find where a jamb is on a bullet, and work in .005 incraments in and out, I find that seating depth is far more important that powder charge, also powder charge will change as the day moves on, and on diferent days, with diferent conditions. I keep a load book with the information I find, including the amount of rounds fired on a barrel.
Now on equipement, I usualy shoot off of a hart mechanical rest with a leather bag that fits the forearm of the stock, and a leather rear bag, made by protektor. I have also shot off of a harris bipod, with a leather rear bag. I usulay shoot a 25 power scope when testing rifles, and higher power scope on a competition rifle. Most of the time I have an old tried and trued Japanese Tasco 25 power world class, that is one of my favorite scopes. I also have a couple of Vortex crossfires that are 8 to 32 power, that I have shot some competition with. I will never shoot off of anything else, as I feel that this is not fair for the test of the rifle. Usualy when I shoot a group, I limit myself to 7 minutes, as that is what I am use to doing with benchrest shooting, even with most time, I find that I am done much sooner. I make sure I am confratable when everything is set up. I aways shoot over wind flags, I usualy shoot over 3 flags at 100 yards, and 5 flags at 200 yards. Sometime I will place flags on either side of me just to see if a condition is changing. Most time I shoot off of a wood bench, as that is why my local range has, I prefer to shoot off of concreat, but sometime we dont have the choice. The thing is the becnh has to be sturdy.
Now when I triy out a new rifle, I literly pull it out of the box, and shoot it. I may change trigger pull weight when capable, with accu-trigger I usulay turn the weight up some, as usualy from the box, they are set too light, to where they will trip when closing the bolt. There is nothing that spoils a group more than a malfunction, and I try to make the rifle as repeatable as possible, even if it take more trigger pull. I will remove sling swivals, as they can realy screw up a group when they hit a shooting bag, or rest. Now with that all said, I do load developement, and tune the rifle. I will then shoot some groups. My findings is every Savage rifle I have ever shot, will shoot groups at an around an average of 1/2 inch at 100 yards. I have shot low end and high end savages, and this is the norm. With that siad I will get a group or two that is bigger than a 1/2 inch say a .7, and I will get a group or two that is smaller than a 1/2 inch, which put the rifle into shooting a 1/2 inch consistantly. (Considering the conditions, as stated earlier.) I have shot sporter barreld guns, I have shot varmint weight guns, I have shot plastic stocks, wood stocks,and found them to all be the same. I usualy pick light recoiling rounds such as a 223 or 22/250, as recoil will affect groups size, I can honestly say I have never shot a small group with a 308, or other moderate to heavy recoiling round. Most of Svages line up is around 10 lbs, I can say with a light recoiling round, weight is not much of an factor. Sometimes weight can be a hinderance, as a gun can not have good shoot ablilty when it is heavy.
Now with that all said I will change my shooting technique to talior the needs of the gun. Some guns I shoot free recoil, some guns I shoot pined hard to the rest aginst my shoulder. When ever shooting off of a bipod, you must preload the bipod. I also found that you have to have something under the bipod, such as a scrap of carpet, or rubber, at a bipod off of a concreat bench is a horrible thing. I had one gun I shot that I have to place my hand on the back of the stock, under my chin to hold it down into the rear bag, as because of the long barrel and bad weight displacement, the gun was nose heavy, I also pined this rifle against the rest.
Now that I have said all of that I will show some of the honest groups I have shot out of bone factory rifles.
Here is a target shot out of a model 12VSS right ou the box, nothing done to it the rifle was chambered in 22/250 this was shot at a loacl vamrint match. This was 4 targets at 100 yards with 2 sighters all shoot in one time limit of 15 minutes. Rifle was shot off of a hart rest with a leather brick bag as a rear bag ontop of a 4x6 piece of wood. I had my old 25 power Tasco on it.
Picture of the gun.
Here is a picture of a 5 shot 100 yard group shot out of a model 12 benchrest chambered in 6mmBR shot off of a hart rest, on a leather rear bag, shot in pratice, this is a 5 shot 100 yard group, with my old 25 power tasco scope. I turned the weight up on the accutrigger, and shot the gun right out of the box. I shot this gun in a few club matchs and the gun averaged in at 1/2 inch groups.
Picture of the rifle.
Here is a picture of a 5 shot 100 yard group shot out of a factory Axis rifle chambered in 22/250 shot off of a bipodwith a Tasco 10x40 power scope. I shot many groups, with this gun, and it would everage about 1/2 inch, the groups would open up when the barrel got hot, so I did spend a bit of time letting the gun cool.
Picture of the gun.
Here is a couple of 100 yard 5 shoot groups shot out of a model 10 precision carbine chambered in 223 remington, shot off of a hart rest with a leather rear bag, with a mueller 8x32 power scope. This gun I raised the pull weight of the accu-trigger, and removed the accu-wedge, but other than that it was right out the box.
Picture of the gun.
I have many other tagrets shot from out of box factory Savage that are around 1/2 inch or berrer, just not on this computer, or on my photo hoasting website. Some were I even have pictures of a model 112BT out of the box, in 243 win, that I shot at 600 yards and averaged around 6 inch groups, even beat out a few custom actions. I hope this make you a believer.
Last edited by 82boy; 11-12-2012 at 12:11 PM.
My deer rifle...
Remington 700 Mountain LSS (VERY thin profile barrel) in 260 Remington
Leupold VX-III 3.5-10x50 scope
Nosler 120gr Ballistic Tip @ 2.79" OAL
39.3gr Varget
RP Brass
WLR primer
3 shots, 105yd (yes, I did adjust 1 minute right after shooting this group...), using rest as pictured.
Another rifle, another group, shot the same day from the same bench/rest as the Remmy pictured above:
Savage 12FV 1:9 223 barrel
Bell & Carlson A2 Medalist stock with CDI DBM
Vortex Viper HS 5-15x44 scope
5 shots, 105yd, Hornady 75gr Steel Match ammo
Last picture, is of my local 100 yard range, this time I was shooting 2 wind flags, and a wind probe I made.
bsekf
I am with you, there is a lot of small groups shot on the internet, and I tried to show an average of groups shout out of a rifle, but looking through my picture, I usualy only have the small groups. It is a funny thing you will see some people show what we call a "wallet group" but they only have one of these and they post it over and over, and claim that this is what the rifle averages. I thought about trying to challange the internet croud with something I call "Fred's challange." The idea comes from Fred Moreo (Sharp Shooter.) and I thought about seeing how many could complete this challange.
The challange is to take a standard business card (3 1/2 inches by 2 inches.) and divide it up into 6 eaqual portions. (Each square is roughly 1 inch.) With this card you can add anything you want as a reference point inside the squares, you can use one of the squares as pratic, or a sighter, or not at all, the point is to shoot 5 groups of 5 shots, and keep all the shoots inside the squares. Each square would have a group of 5 shots, for a total of 25 rounds. This target would be shot at 100 yards.
Pucture of the layout.
Last edited by 82boy; 11-12-2012 at 01:26 PM.
i have found that if i buy a quality rifle and quality scope, tighten everything well, and reload ammo that is consistent, and i use good bench form- i have no trouble with 1/2" or less at 100 yards from 3/4 of the rifles i buy or shoot.
the rest may be due to barrel, ammo, runout on my ammo, windy days, too much caffeine, whatever. but i have only had a few here and there that would not go under a half inch on average. two rugers, two remingtons, one TC barrel, my muzzleloader, and a howa .270 which i think had some bedding issues i couldn't fix.
This group was shot at 300 yards with my Stevens 200. The only modification it has is I removed a little material in the barrel channel near the front of the stock so the barrel would have a little more clearance. It has a Vanguard Equalizer 1 bi-pod, a Bushnell Elite Tactical 10x40 mounted onto a Weaver picattiny rail with Weaver quad-lock rings. The ammunition is Hornady 50 grain Superformance Varmint. Shot from the prone position. 7 shot group. And if you exclude my flier a 6 shot group. My rifle really does love the Hornady. When I was sighting it in I fired a three shot group from 100 yards and they all went in the same hole. I actually fired two shots and seen one hole so I went to the target and put a small twig in the hole and fired another shot. Still one hole. Went back to the target and the twig was missing. I jammed it in there, it didn't fall out.
Bought my son a new Hog Hunter in .308 today, I had to Coach rifle team so my 16 year old daughter brought it out to the range to break it in and zero it. I had built 12 175smk for barrel break in and 12 168 berger classic hunters to zero for hunting. She cleaned after every round for the first 12, and then shot 5 168's they went into a .711 group. Not bad for only having 17 rds down the factory barrel. I have found if you use a good scope and base have the action screws tight most factory savage rifles shoot sub moa. My daughter can drive a rifle better than most, the group above was shot just using her bipod and her homemade rear bag for fclass. Her 20 inch 7mm SAUM with a CBI barrel is a .2 to .3 rifle the last group she shot at 800 yds measured 2.75 inch, this rifle makes even me look good at the range.
Box stock Savage 10 BA. Black Hills 168g at 400 yards. 2.25" five round group is typical. Even my son who was 13 at the time shot around .5 MOA with it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDqIUPoP_os&feature=plcp
Apologies... Someone smack me upside the head :D
Last edited by Mike Vegas; 11-13-2012 at 08:51 PM.
Mike, please re-read his post again carefully. Bill stated that he felt like the only person who had NOT done that.Originally Posted by Mike Vegas
As for me, I can take any rifle out of the box and shoot a perfect one hole group at any range.
My only problem is that my second shot produces a different perfect one hole group far away from the first one!
I had a Steyr Pro Hunter in 7mm Rem. with a Leopold 3.5x10x50mm scope that would shoot clover leafs right out of the box shooting off of sandbags.. It didn't care what ammo I shot in it either. I could get the same groups with cheap Remington 150 gr. Coreloks.
Well I guess the custom barrel makers will be out of business, as well as a bunch of custom rifle makers. No need to spend the big bucks when a $400 Savage will do all of the above. Those are very impressive groups and I have no reason to doubt their validity. Many seem to have been done with little or no load development and nothing special in the way of loading bench technique. I hope none of you ever come to our little competition.......you will go home with all the birds.
I guess I AM the only guy that has trouble getting rifles to shoot....well. Thanks for the defence Thomae.
What I was looking for was information on scopes, rifle prep, loading bench technique, shooting technique, use of wind flags and anything else you use to wring the best of of your rifles. But, it appears all that stuff is unnecessary. Maybe I am overthinking this subject. I keep thinking of all the guys the show up at out little competition with one hole rifles and after shooting they don't even bother going down to look at their target, just pack up and go home. HUM
Please read my disclaimer again.
Bill
bsek - a factory barrel may shoot well, but you have a much higher chance of a good aftermarket barrel doign it. A lot of those rifles dont appear to be base rifles (12's aren't exactly the budget rifle).
You're not the only one.. I've got a 110 that wont group better than 2" at 100 right now. There is all typs of pressure points in the stock.
You want accuracy, make the stock work with your action. Some people are lucky and dont have much to do.. I've got a lot of sanding to do. The barrel isn't free floated, I have high spots in the stock in the middle of the acton, etc. You haven't really gone into detail as to what you have tried to make yours work.
If you want loading bench manners that lead to consistent ammo, stupidly consistent.. do everything the exact same every time. If you want to get anal retentive, weigh your brass after cleaning it and separate it into matching weights. Same with your bullets. Get a pocket uniformer and use it. Trickle your powder in and weigh each. Measure runout and sort by OAL. Measure neck concentricty and correct it were it is wrong.. Some people aren't .5 moa shooters, and its ot the rifle.
I think you are overly thinking this whole thing by a mile! First off you don't need wind flags to shoot a group and there is no special secret that select few know at the reloading bench! There is NO top secret to shooting a gun, none at all. It doesn't matter who has the most expensive gear or rifle it always falls back on the person pulling the trigger! No custom barrel maker or rifle maker will go out of business due to the fact that factory off the shelf guns can run right along with the customs! The biggest reason you buy a custom is to be different then the factory rifles right? Sometimes people think if they have all the fancy stuff it will make them a better shooter and it just doesn't work that way. Most people just need stop and go back to the basics. Some people just can't shoot as good as some and that is just a fact. Remember the old saying "Don't fear the man with many guns, Fear the man with one!" Truth is you don't know how many rounds a guy has put down range even though they talk like they shoot twice a week when the truth is they don't shoot more then 20 rds a year. So don't get to caught up on other peoples groups they post online and the stuff they use.
And I too have a 11 that won't shoot for $hit right now!
I much prefer more then one target to prove myself and my guns on different days! All 5 shot groups at 100 yards. Yes I can go through and tell you every single little detail about my reloading and rifle. But will it help you and yours? Most likely not as your already doing the same if not more during your reloading. But I will say this ammo was loaded with LEE dies and press. I don't claim the rifle as shooting anything but I also had no problem putting it up against others for money. And yes it's a AR and not a bolt I know but it did win me some money. And no not a single one of these targets is the smallest this rifle ever printed but if it can't be repeated then what is the point of posting it right?
Hi Folks, Long time Looker, Lifetime Savage owner and Apprentice Smith here.
I will say that from other Gunsmiths in the US, It is of equal opinion that the True Center to Center Run out in a savage is about .001-.002".
Most other actions out there wether it be a PRE-POST Winchester 70, Rem 700, Ruger M77 or variants will have between .005-.007" of runout.
Savage actions are extruded metal, so the machining processes are easier to make accurately. Their Heat treat procedures, Barrel making procedures are some of the best. and out of all the savage's I'm miked, I really only get .001-.002" on the scale. This means for a higher average Concentricity when compared to other rifle.
I own several Savages, 10's, 14's and 12's (mod 40-mod99', and some old Mk's) Out of all my rifles on average I can find a factory load that works well and will generate that MOA accuracy that we all strive for. Some of my savages are .5" Kings and some are 1.3" Queens, but after some simple bedding, Torque Value Checks and proper scope aligning I come out with MOA friendly pieces.
I've seen over the years some great advice on this sight for savage builders. It never hurts to say it again.
Lap the Scope Base to the receiver (either using very thin sandpaper to start and finishing with a lapping compound such as wheeler.)
Use loc-tite blue on the entire bottom of the base to allow bedding of the piece to the round receiver. 22lbs is more than enough
Lap the rings
Use 1 Piece Bases for less scope stress, you may try DNZ scope bases, they are of good quality, rarely need lapping and will not bend a scope!
Bed those actions, with clearance under the front lug, and maybe not even touching the barrel(i won't attempt to write up reasons why, we all have our own tech.)
Clean out the Assembly grease in the Firing Pin/ bolt assembly and reassemble Dry! to allow for consistant igintion and to prevent freezing in cold weater.
Last but not least, Shoot and clean the thing!! Try not to rough up the Throat and Leade with crappy 3 piece rods, but hey if that's all you got, then loctite the rod together, file the joints smooth and polish the entire rod to a mirror shine! Clean it after every pass and enjoy
Last but not least,
A very respected gunsmith once told me
If you ever see a man at a BR competition and all he has is 1 savage rifle, pack up your stuff and go home! This man and his beloved can probly shoot!
I'm with the OP. I hear all the talk about 1/2" rifles but nobody can seem to get them to shoot that while I'm watching. I have owned three true 1/2 MOA rifles in my life, two are savage M12 BVSS's with aftermarket barrels, and one was a M70 winchester 7mm stw with a #4 hart barrel that was stolen in a break in several years ago. Other than those rifles, I don't know anyone who has a rifle that I'd bet money on to be a consistent 1/2" rifle. I hear about them, but somehow never seem to see them. One 1/2" group does not make for an accurate rifle, I once had a ruger 7mm rem mag that would be lucky to hold 3 MOA, but I could occasionally shoot a 1/2" group with it. Run enough bullets down the bore and the law of averages says you'll get lucky every now and then.
This refers to 22 inch-lbs torque on the base screws, yes?22lbs is more than enough
KeS
Part of the problem with this thread is that NOBODY is going to brag about the gun that shot average or a little below out of the box. Savage sells a lot of guns. I do have a 12BVSS in .223 that shot sub MOA from the first shot. Prone, bipod and rear bag, on the dirt, random sites in the desert, lasered range to target. I did do some load developement but have been short on time. I fired two 10 shot groups one evening. One batch, the powder was weighed and the other was just thrown. .65 on the weighed and .7 on the thrown at 118 yards. With this gun I like to break clay pidgeons at 300 yards, then break the pieces. The out of the box shooters exist but I have no idea how often. The other thing is that I pick and choose when to shoot based on conditions. Guys who meet to compete, deal with more variables. I suspect that better shooters than me shoot bigger groups due to this fact. Side by side, I expect that I would get a lesson!
I also have a Ruger M77 that is MOA with factory ammo (3 shot groups) and a Marlin 917V 22HMR that is sub MOA (5 shot groups). I have a couple of other guns than need some attention to get them to shoot better that minute of pie plate! It's all fun.
Like 82 Boy and others I have stacks/records of targets like the one below so that I know what a particuler barrel maker or combination will actually do.
I have literally spent 10's or thousands of dollars over the years on buying barrels,scopes,etc. I have weighed bullets,primers,powders,cases or if you will copied every technique out there that I thought was valuable information to make something shoot just a bit better. For 20 years now I have been a machinist and hunter and have not competed. When I did compete I could not afford custom while raising a family so I competed against many thousand dollar guns with stock or near stock tools and did quite well. I bought my oldest son a left handed Savage 110 about 20 years ago for his birthday for $199. including some cheapo scope. I took it out and sighted it in prior to giving it to him. The first 3 shots and every 3 shot group after that shot .250 and I almost did not give him the gun. Since he is lefthanded and I right it did not make much sense not to give him the gun.
I have experienced the same thing with one exception out of every Savage barrel.
I no longer purchase $400. after market barrels because of the Savage trait for accuracy. I do however send Savage barrels to a friend and for $35. have him hand lap (Barrel Maker) because they clean so much easier when the bore is smoth. They also last longer.
There are things that must be done to get this type of accuracy from a stock Savage barrel. The picture shown is the first shots out of a very expensive after market barrel that stock Savage barrels I have shoot very close to this. This barrel still shoots like this along with about a dozen more.
Neal
Well this post seems to drip with sarcasm, but I'll add my 2 cents. I've never pulled a Savage or any other rifle out of the box and had it consistantly shoot well under 1 moa with factory loads. I do not doubt, however, that it is possible. I have, however, had several sporter and varmint weight rifles that would shoot well under 1 moa after some judicious reloading. As a matter of fact, 4 out of 5 Remington .243s would. (a 660 and 3 700s) None had custom barrels, bedding or stocks. I've also owned several that would not - Ruger Varmint .22-250, Remington Varmint .22-250, Remington 788 .243 to name a few. I have a .223 hog hunter that I shot four consecutive 3 shot groups at or under 1/2 moa. Out of 4 different reloads, only one shot over 1 moa (and it was way over) Now you can call me a liar if you like, but I do have photos and still have the targets. I'm not an "internet expert". I've been shooting for over 5 decades and I have no reason to enhance my groups or exagerrate my results. Perhaps those who think this is impossible, need to learn to shoot a little better.
Last edited by rman; 11-26-2012 at 08:19 PM. Reason: typing errors
At on time or another I've had each of my rifles shoot "an" extremely tight group. But one group doesn't tell the story. Show me 5, 5 shot groups then we'll have an idea what we really have. (To those who post one group pictures.)
Last edited by kdvarmint; 11-26-2012 at 08:52 PM.
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