I loaded up some rounds for my 112 BVSS .300WM, using Winchester brass, Winchester Large Rifle primers, and 65.0 grains of H414. I hear a dry fire sound before the bang of the cartridge. It reminds me of shooting a non Savage muzzleloader. The delay is only a nano second but I swear that it is there. Should I be using a Magnum primer? I don't have extraordinary hearing but do use Pro Ears. My gun is new and not yet dialed in but shoots a decent load finding pattern, from a rest. One of the 20 rounds was a dud also. My first dud in my short reloading experience +-400 rounds. Could it be a funky batch? I loaded during high humidity ( for here anyway), will that have an impact? Any ideas?
Thank you, I love this site!
Preston
You shouldnt be hearing anything but a bang...
H414 seems a little fast for a magnum cartridge and only 65gr of powder combined with standard primers may not be a good combination? I just dont know for sure but wonder if anyone else has tried that combo. What bullet weight are you using with that powder?
If you can hear the firing pin strike, something isnt right and it may be unsafe, be careful and lets see what others say.
Preston,
I know what you're talking about. But I have never heard it when shooting centerfire guns. Not even an inline muzzleloader. I can hear the primer going off an instant before the main bang sometimes when I shoot a sidelock muzzleloader.
Marc
Brought this up about a month ago. Same as what your hearing, "click-bang".
My problem turned out to be CCI primers. Started a new load with BR-2, didnt have any duds, but had many delays. Took the loads apart and reloaded with CCI 200, problem solved. Just a bad lot of primers?
i have had this as well....usually with CCI primers..a click then boom. i have also had some duds. all out of an older box of large rifle primers. i have not had any since. and im still using CCI for most....i have federal gold metal match for rest.
Thank you for the replies, I think that I will fetch some new primers before I continue.
Outlawkyote, great conservative approach on my combo, I got my info from Barnes and did everything accordingly except use the Magnum primer. Like many, I have read many different theories about the use of mag primers...that it is just quality control, only necessary for cold weather, etc. Well this is my first magnum and I did not have any mag primers on hand. Should I be loading with the mag primers only? And how did you learn not to use a fast burning powder, in a small amount, with a standard primer? Thank you for your experience, you reply often to my questions.
♦ Indicates most accurate load
Bullet Weight: 130 gr Case Trim Length: 2.610" S.D. 0.196
Bullet Style: TSX BT Primer: Federal GM215M B.C. 0.340
COAL: 3.340" Barrel Length: 24"
Case: Winchester Twist Rate: 1:10"
Powder Charge Velocity Charge Velocity Load
Brand (grains) (fps) (grains) (fps) Density (%)
♦ AA 2700 71.0 3238 78.0 3485 89
H414 65 0 3193 76 0 3509 87
Ive had some very good guidance from my friends at Western Powders. Ive more or less wired all the buildings at Western Powders and worked for almost every employee that works there plus I was neighbors with their load tech and picked his brain every moment I had, I bought that man a lot of brewski's while I lived next door to him.Originally Posted by savagepresto
Ive used H414 in my 2506 with great success (small bullets only) but was advised by the loading tech (Don Hartman) that I should be using "magnum" primers with a large case and small bullet combo like I was doing due to the risk of "detination" whic is when powder can actually spike very badly and actually tear a rifle to bits.
I wasnt sure what your problem was but, when I saw the "big case fast powder combo" listed it just raised some red flags for me. I have not personally tried H414 in my 300wm so I wasnt sure what kind of load you were putting together but only that something wasnt right and it needed looking into.
Magnum primers are not just primers with a better quality controle process. Magnum primers burn a lot hotter than standard primers allowing the larger quantity of powders (seen in magnum cases) to burn more effectivly. I highly recomend magnum primers in magnum cases.
I had the same problem with a 300 WSM using W760 (which I've read is the same as H414) and standard rifle primers.
After reading everything I could find on the subject, the consensus seems to be this:
Use Magnum primers with ball type powders
Use Standard or Magnum primers with extruded (stick) powders
I know it's hard to make a "rule" with reloading, which has alot of variables, but since applying this "rule", I've had no more click-bangs. I usually test magnum primers even with the extruded powders and still use them on one load for the 300WSM with extruded powders - because that gun and load groups better with magnum primers.
Elkbane
Thank you everyone, I purchased three types of Magnum primers today and will start the process again.
Outlawkyote, that is priceless experience you had first hand access to, thank you for helping share it with the rest of us. I was curious how you learned that as that is not anything I have come across in a manual. I obviously am relieved that it was not through dangerous hands on experience.
Presto
The detonation problem is usually seen with small chargers of very slow burning powder (maybe around 4831 or RL-22) in large cases - not small charges of fast burning powders.
Magnum primers burn hotter and longer and are best for large cases or really slow powders (I don't think you are in the the ball park of that problem with 414 and the 300 WSM but....)
I would lean toward - bad batch of primers, primers not seated completely, primers or powder contaminated, primer pocket with tumbling media left in it, or gunk/grease/oil on firing pin/spring (or not enough firing pin protrusion or broken firing pin). Other long shots include REALLY long headspace or brass with the shoulder pushed way too far back.
Presto,I had this problem reloading for the RUM. The problem for me was not the primers but I was loading below the published minimum for the ultra mag of 80 gr of IMR 4350 with a 165 gr bullet.Very dangerous indeed(click 1,2,3,BOOM). The load you are showing is a minimum charge for a 165gr bullet in my manual which also shows usinga federal 215(magnum) primer and may be under published minimums with any lighter bullets. Reduced loads to soften recoil are often desirable but a lot more complicated than simply less powder than listed.I figured this out the hard way even after reading about it and fortunately no one got hurt. Check your load data again and be careful about your data sources and to follow the recipes exactly especially if near the bottom or the top end.
Good Luck Skip
A good wife and a steady job has ruined many a great hunter.
Been looking and listening last couple of days.
CCI BR-2 is really having a problem lately. Shooters over on 6mmBR are talking about primers "alot". Seems there getting the same bull from CCI tech as everyone else. Seat them hard, then seat them hard again to arm the anvil. Due to CCIs slightly oversize dia., and the tight fit in a "new" pocket, seems the compound is cracking causing hangfires or duds.
Once you use a CCI primer, ive found you dont want to change brands, pocket is oversize from their use. If I use them, I keep using them. When I work up a new batch of brass, I wont start with CCI, thare good on used cases with loose pockets.
I had lots of problems with CCI primers... I havent used them in years.
I haven't had any problems with the CCI BR primers since I started handloading 5-6 years ago, and they're the primers I use almost exclusively.
"Life' is tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid." ~ John Wayne
“Under certain circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.” —Mark Twain
Well Jim, tell us how you make them work. ;D
Its 50-50, Seems that "technique" in case prep, or seating must enter into this. OOOOORRRR, you are just one lucky man. You have managed to get "good lots" for the last 5 years.
Me too, both the BR2s & 4s, 200s and 400s. Although I haven't actually measured them, supposedly the cups are thicker than other primers. Its on my "to do list" one of these days.
With that said, 99% of the time a primer failure is due to a rifle problem, not a primer problem. The rifle problem just shows up with the thicker-tougher cups. Short pin fall, excessive pin protrusion , something padding the pin fall or when reloading, the seating methods and pockets all can give the indication of a bad primer. The cold day failures are generally a good indication of something out of whack in the bolt,trigger and sear assemblies. I've fixed a lot of bad primers with a simple cleaning of the bolt and trigger assemblies.
On a Savage trigger, especially if one wants near zero trigger over travel, is one cause of the "click-bang". The sear drags on the radius of the trigger restricting the clean and /or delayed release of the cocking piece.
By the way if IIRC, Fred sells the .035" sear return springs which increases the primer impact pressures a few pounds, 6 to 8 in that area somewhere. You can also get them from MSC.
Bill
Typically, but not all the time, if you have problems with CCI primers, it's an indication of ignition issues with the gun. Number 1 culprit is short firing pin fall, which is not uncommon on Savage rifles, especially if someone tore the bolt assembly down to basics and did not get the proper spring compression length.
#2 is excessive sear drag, which robs the mainspring of energy to the primer.
"As long as there's lead in the air....there's still hope.."
Sharpshooter, factory pin protrusion on mine was .060, set it to .042 with spring length at .910 (cant remember the first inches tonight) . After doing this, had intermittent hangfires with CCI. Went back to Fed gm210 and have had "0" problems, 150 rounds so far. When load developing, I use every brand out there, even the Wolfs. The "only " primer that gives me any trouble is CCI.
If anybody can shoot them without problems, you must be blessed. For me, I dont like CCI and CCI dont like me. Not just me now, there are others.
Sharpshooter. I put two identical triggers on two different guns and had this problem with CCI primers. I didn't molest either of the bolts until I read a post of yours on firing pin protrusion. Since setting them to .040" from the ~.052 - .060" that they were, I haven't had any problems to date. What is your take on that?
No previous problems before trigger swap either.
Its my first post one here.
I have just gotten into reloading. I am starting out small using a classic lee loader and just doing it for fun really. I am having hangfires with the rounds I have loades so far. I am using CCI BR-2 primers and H414 powder in a .30-06 savage 110 with 150gr hornaday bullets. It seems to be a common problem with H414. It was cold today and I thought that may play a role. It was around 32 degrees or so maybe colder but not too much. Are hangfires temperature dependent as well?
Like Jim, I use a lot of CCIs, mostly BR2-4s without problems. Fact is, if your having trouble with them you either have a rifle or a loading problem, maybe a combination of both.Well Jim, tell us how you make them work. ;D
Its 50-50, Seems that "technique" in case prep, or seating must enter into this. OOOOORRRR, you are just one lucky man. You have managed to get "good lots" for the last 5 years.
As far as the 414-760 powders are concerned, we almost exclusively use those powders in the '06s, but with 215s. Over the years we're noticed some wild ES numbers using LR primers with them especially in cooler weather, but not with LRMs.
As a side note IMR-4007SSC has shown some promise ( velocity-accuracy) with 150-165s in the '06s
Bill
I too have had this same problem. CCI primers only. I had a couple of hundred to try and after the first loads i tossed the rest. Pull the trigger, click..... twiddle my thumbs, then bang. A couple never got farther then the thumb thing.(complete misfire). And this was all out of 20 rounds. Had five or six delays and two misfires out of the first 14 rounds.
Stu
Wow, I never had a single misfire with CCI's. Have had 3 or so with Remington 9-1/2's. Now maybe I'll be jinxed.
Ed Bell, PA Deer Hunter & NRA Life Member ~ “The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.”~
Good grief, I've been using CCI-450s in .223 since the year 2000. Have never had a hang fire. I must be living right or could it be that I don't full around with odd loads and stick to the proper procedures. Never have tried to minimize loads or maximize. Accuracy seems to come just under max. Be careful, be safe. ??? Quick
Have had some delays with 3 different kind of primers ( 2 srp and spp ) in a 300 whisper. Found that I was seating the bullet so fast it was backing the primer out a little. LC brass. Loading a hot 243 - cci 250 and Fed. - using ww760. No primer would work with this powder in this shell! When you can hear and feel the firing pin hit - THAT AIN'T RIGHT. 7mm-08 with 414, same problem, but started using aa2460 with great success. So far no bad primers, just bad loading procedures.
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