Hello
I currently have a Bushnell Elite E3940 3-9x40 (the new replacement of Elite 4200 series) on my axis .223 great clarity of the scope at all powers, however, I would like to have more magnification when shooting at the range and preferably get something with better eye relief not a huge factor though. I was thinking to go 4-16 Nikon Monarch, but I was wondering if I should get a Leupold VX2 or what ever the equivalent model is in the price range of under $400?
I heard nothing but great things about Zeiss Conquest, but their 3-9x40 model cost same as 4-16x42 Monarch Nikon.
Last edited by alee18; 10-02-2012 at 04:24 PM.
Look at the M223 version of the scope with the Nicoplex reticle and "rapid turret". Unlike the Monarch the M223 has exposed turret knobs for about the same price. The turrets on my Nikons have been extremely reliable, better than any other scope I own except for the Viper PST and I don't have enough time on that one to have made a firm opinion yet.
True, they're about the same price, but what you give up to get the fancy reticle and rapid turret is lens and coating quality. In other words, you're trading optical quality for bells and whistles.Originally Posted by Westcliffe01
Jim B. - Site Administrator
I run a forum - someone please shoot me and put me out of my misery already
Since when is the M223 optical system coated differently than the Monarch ? In my opinion the optics are identical and the only difference is the turret. Why would Nikon apply a different process and double the part numbers when it would be cheaper to just use the same parts ? If you get the Nicoplex reticle it is exactly the same as on the Monarch. The BDC reticle is different and specifically designed for 55gr 223 ammo. Usually the M223 scope is more expensive than the equivalent Monarch, but there have been some price breaks recently. If that had not been the case I would be owning my own M223 right now, but I couldn't swing it at the time.
Don't quote me, but I *believe* the Conquest is a front-focus scope - I may have the terminology wrong, but the effect is that the reticle magnification/apparent size changes along with the zoom. This may be important to you if you're using mil-dot or other reticle measurements, or if you just don't like the effect.
KeS
Nope, the 3-9x40 Conquest is a second focal plane scope so the reticle stays the same size but the target gets bigger as you zoom.
Thanks. A friend of mine just got rid of a Conquest and said that was why. Do the Zeiss scopes all work the same, or does it vary between model or line?
KeS
Yes its second focal plane.
And Kevin the term you were looking for is first focal plane. ;-)
"usually" (before Vortex) one had to pay well over $1000 and closer to $2000 for a first focal plane scope. It looks like today there are scopes even cheaper than Vortex, but I usually believe that below a certain point "you get what you pay for". I'm not well heeled enough for a $1700 Nightforce scope, so its the Vortex for me. It is my first FFP scope and it goes together with my rationalization plan to consolidate my hunting rifles to just 2 actions with switch barrels and each with FFP scopes. Otherwise there is no way I can afford to put a GREAT scope on each rifle...
"Since when is the M223 optical system coated differently than the Monarch ?"
"Why would Nikon apply a different process and double the part numbers when it would be cheaper to just use the same parts ?"
I've not looked at one of the M223's closely enough to know if they're different or not but there's nothing that says they have to be. I doubt it would be cheaper to do so. Otherwise, there wouldn't be the Buckmasters and Prostaff lines. They don't have the same coatings as the Monarch either.
Just remember that there is the Monarch and then there is the Monarch X. The X has the 30mm tubes and probably does have different glass and coatings. But at 3x the price, one would expect that. Between the "regular" side focus Monarch and the M223, usually the M223 scope is MORE expensive than the regular Monarch, so I doubt very much that there is any difference whatsoever in the glass or coatings. The buckmasters and pro staff comes in a few rings down on the ladder and as far as I know do not have parallax correction and are probably built in China, where the Monarch and M223 is not.
Nope. They're built in the Phillipines too and the high powered Buckmasters have side parallax adjustment. And that was point about them being lower down the ladder, meaning that the 223 model could be as well but I have no experience with the 223 model so can't say for sure. I was just saying it was possible.
Standard rule I tell customers; If you are going to buy Leupold then buy VX3 or higher. If you are thinking VXII or lower Nikon will give you much better glass for the same money. Vortex will give you great glass for the same money.
Conquest run with the higher end VX3 scopes for clarity. The VX3 has better glass than the MK4 series as well.
Scopes. Man.....if your just shooting a Pa. whitetail it's a pretty easy choice. Just slap on a fix 4X or a 3-9X that will hold it's zero on whatever rifle your shooting and go kill a whitetail. Well, that is as long as the scope has some "toughness" to it and can take a bit of banging around.
I am kind of a die hard Leupold fan. I have found those scopes to be a "set 'em and forget 'em" type of scope. In fact, last year I took a VX-I and sent it to the Leupold Custom Shop and for $120 they installed "click" AND target turrets, and for another $40 they cut me a custom ballistic correct elevation turret knob for my cartridge and bullet. This scope will never get sold!!
This year I bought a Vortex Viper PST 6-24x50 for my heavy barrel Savage in 6.5 Swede. It's nice.....but not as "tough" as my Leupolds. I bumped my rifle by accident once, and the rifle did not even make it to the ground, yet it did a bump off of a door jamb.....and that was enough to toss the scope off. I was very surprised by this. My Leupolds have been through bigger bumps and held their zero's but the Vortex did not.
I'm thinking of going with the Leupold VX-3 and this Vortex may go either on the block, or just kept for "benchwork" only.
FWIW
Dave
For the money Nikon is very hard to beat in my opinion. To my eye the Nikon offers greater clarity than the leupolds. My only complaint with Nikon is the 1/8 adjustment on anything over 14 power.
Get the leupold. the new VX-2 models are super clear, rugged, and crisp. The Nikon scopes look dirty to me personally. Plus the leupolds are made in the USA which is an added bonus, and you can't beat the lifetime warranty of leupold scopes.
Do you know if you accidentally rotated the turret in that incident ? Do you have a steel rail and rings ? Do you loctite the base to the receiver ? I sometimes find it a bit sad seeing the massive tactical rings some people put on their guns with 6 screws per ring holding the cap on, when the entire rail is held on with 4 tiny screws half the size of the ones holding the rings together. And then a cheap aluminum base !
I have had a few different incidents and so far none of my scopes has ever lost zero, that includes Weaver, Nikon and Vortex. I will say though, that the repeatability of the turrets on my Weaver scopes really sucked. It took a few shots to get the reticle to settle down on its final position and I always overshot the intended correction sighting in. However, once sighted in and checked with about 12 rounds, they have all stayed put.
On My Monarch and the Viper PST I have no concerns using the turrets, I just have to remember to keep the turret cover in my pocket if it is my Nikon... And since it is a low profile turret, there is only space for a single row of engraving, but I figure I would be wasting my time trying to shoot beyond 650 yards with my 223 anyway... With the Vortex, I just make sure the index marks are still zeroed when I take it out the case. It is easy to forget that you dialed up 3 or 4 minutes on the last shot. That is unfortunately a fact of life with exposed turrets and they need to be checked before you are in your hunting position, at which point I don't dare turn any form of light on or I will spook any game in a 200 yard radius (i am always getting in position in the pitch dark before dawn).
One thing I will agree with is that Nikon Customer service is not comparable to the US manufacturers. Half the time you end up talking to someone in NYC who I doubt has even looked through a scope. When I had an issue with my "Spot on" on line turret order, I ended up getting helped by a pro sport guy who was in marketing and based in Texas. I couldn't get any sense out of the people in the NY corporate office.
Last edited by Westcliffe01; 10-03-2012 at 06:03 PM.
why not just buy the 6.5-20x44 Vortex Viper that is a special thru Cameraland for $279? Its just as tough a scope as any other out there, and has just as good of a lifetime warranty as a leupold. These are probably one of the best deals on the market IMO since they normally cost $459. Cameraland is really good to deal with as well.
I have had many Nikons and have only had issues with one or two of them, and have no issues with any of my Leupolds.
One thing that I have always thought though is, you always see places that are selling Nikon and Burris Refurbs and that alone now steers me away from them.
”I have a very strict gun control policy: if there’s a gun around, I want to be in control of it.”
~Clint Eastwood
Yeah....I'm pretty sure I know a spun turret or a lose allen screw from a not-so-tough scope. I don't use aluminum base scope rings on anything but a 22-LR, and even then I change 'em out when I make my next Midway order.
Fact is the Vortex is not as tough as the Leupold. That is my opinion. But I've spent enough $$$ on rifles, handguns, handgun scopes, rifle scopes and mounts to know what I like and what is just OK. And I'll tell you that when I'm hunting in WY and aiming at a nice antelope at 525 yards after 3 or 4 days of hunting, I sure as heck don't want my scope to be off because it took a medium bump off a truck door. My Leupold's have never let me down.
is this even a questions?! BUY LEUPOLD. the monarch doesnt even compare! If you have looked at both you will see what im talking about. Listen, Leupold makes better product (IMHO) hands down. if you want the "bells and whistles" of the Monarch for your 223, you have 2 opinions.
Option 1: Buy a Leupold Mark AR which has custom dials build for 55gr 223. really easy to use. I have one on my DPMS AR.
Option 2: (Best option in my opinion) Buy a VX-2 with the CDS dials, shoot your best load through a chronograph to figure out the velocity, and then call leupold and get custom dials build for your rifle and your bullet.
Besides, buy american when you have an option.
Just to let the OP know Natchez has all scopes on sale
Vortex = "Made in the Philippines". Just remember the old adage "You get what you pay for".
I don't think Leupold is a perfect brand. I will start by saying I never owned one myself. I work at a gun/hunting shop and I have mounted two Leupold scopes on rifles. One was a VX2 that was a POS to say the least. It was nowhere near as clear as a Bushnell Elite or Legend Ultra HD, and the magnification ring was so stiff one person had to hold the rifle to prevent it from twisting while another turned the ring. Best part of all? It was stuck at its lowest power, 4x. (Scope was 4-14x40). Brand new out of the box VX2 with issues. Next was a VX1 3-9x40. Nice scope, except for quality control must have been on break when this scope sneaked through. I took the scope out of the box, mounted it and bore sighted it. Then when I went to put the windage cap back on the **** thing was cross threaded from the factory, it would not go back on. The owner assured me it was never out of packaging before. Leupold did send him new caps. I don't mean to crap on Leupold for the sake of doing so, this is just my experience. With that being said, I am interested in a Mark 4 for my next rifle build, but I will be staying away from lower end Leupold.
1ShotKing
Trent,
Yes. Thanks for clearing up my fuzzy view of his post. WestCliff, my appoligies for jumping down your eye-sockets last night. I had "other distractions" that were spilling over on this forum...and a few other post I made on a few other forums last evening. She went to work this am. :)
It could have been the rings. Possible. Perhaps the way the scope banged off the door jamb and was "leveraged" against the rifle. I'm not tossing in the towel yet. I'll bang it around for some time yet as I'm not going back to WY until next September. However, between now and then I will be "picking up" an new VX-3 with a 25-X max, and I'll use 'em both and then make up my mind.
But I've not had any issues with my VX-1 or VX-2. I'd recommend 'em in a heartbeat to anyone who is considering buying a Leupold. The only Leupold I was not happy with was the EER 2.5-8X handgun. (I think the low end was 2.5??) I found that scope had to small of an eye relief window for a handgun scope. I used that scope for 4 years and when I sold all of my Contender frames and barrels, that scope went as well.
FWIW
Dave
True that!! I don't think any glass is made here in the gold 'ol USA.
I tell ya....if you want to get a thread going on any forum.....just ask a question about what would be a good scope (or even the "best" scope) to mount on your 834-Loudn'n-boomer!! When your all done, you'll just say the heck with it.....I'm gonna buy what I though I would anyway!! (Just don't buy a TASCO!!)
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