44 Auto Mag on Model 11 platform

[foxx]

I am looking to build a "kid friendly" 44 / 45 bolt action for Southern Michigan deer hunting. It needs to be a straight walled pistol cartridge s.a. .44 Magnum or .357 Magnum, but I want a rimless cartridge that would work off the .308 bolt head.

I am very familiar with the 450BM, I think it's the best thing that's ever happened for deer hunting around here, but it also has a bit of a recoil and somewhat heavy for young kids and small ladies.

Someone suggested I look at the old (now almost obsolete) .44 Auto Mag.

I guess it uses a shortened ..308 case and .429 inch bullets. and is essentially the same dimensions and ballistics as the 44 mag but has a rimless case. (hence, my interest).

I'm "sold" already, but am wondering:
1. what you all think
2. assuming I can get a reamer made to chamber the blanks, what should I be looking for as far as blanks go? What is the caliber? .44??? Who might make barrel blanks for such a thing at about 20-22 inches?

Thanks in advance

[snowgetter1]

McGowan or Apache should be able to do what you want for the barrel blank. Chambering I have no idea. But, it sounds like a great project. I am guessing MI requires the cartridge to be a factory produced round and not a wildcat?

[pdcullen]

I would help out on a reamer for that as I reload for 44 mag and would LOVE to do a build in something close to it. I am still considering 50 HPDT but to stay with .429 would be great.

[foxx]

Yeah i will be asking Apache to do this... just trying to get educated.

MI requires it be an established pistol cartridge but it does not necessarily have to be commercially avail currently. ( as i understand it, anyhow) It has been in the past.

[pdcullen]

Starline still sells brass for the cart...why did I buy that 308 barrel foxx?

[pdcullen]

On automag versus 44 mag: I thought someone was able to do a 45/70 in the savage, not sure I can picture how that works with the rimmed case. I am sure I could get the 44 to feed somehow. Maybe not.

BTW when I hunt with a pistol I use a 44 mag 8.375" barrel and it does great on deer; bang flop, just like the muzzleloader. I try to stay under 50 yards with the pistol.

I love large metplat heavy bullets to take down deer.

[foxx]

Well, the 45/70 would be nice, but rimmed carts don't work with Savage. THat's why the 450BM is so good, it's essentially the same but rimless.

Same rationale for going .44 Auto Mag vs. .44 Mag. Rimless vs. Rimmed. If I could get starline, that would be great. Not looking for precision. Yeah, pd, I am doing a lot of builds these days, but this project is actually for a non-profit organization I and some friends on the west side of Michigan are starting up... It's call Crossbeam Outdoors. In concept it's a cross between scouting and deer hunting. We want to have a Christian-based youth program that gets kids who would like to learn about deer hunting, habitat, environment, etc. but don't have a father or uncle or someone to take them hunting. Hopefully it will be for underprivileged youth as well, but not necessarily. Here's a link to our site. It's gonna be a great program, we just need money and rifles and tents and seed and property and... money. http://www.crossbeamoutdoors.org/

[Hotolds442]

444 Marlin with the rims turned down to .473. Case diameter at the rim is .4698, works with a standard bolt face.
Easy-Peasy.
Load it down for the kiddies, load it up for exhibition of mass destruction.

[foxx]

Thanks, but it's too long for Southern Michigan "shotgun zone".

[pdcullen]

I wonder if 1 reamer can work for multiple lengths, like the thumper. (And head spacing off of case mouth.) (Edit to say 308 is tapered, so I am guessing no. I am not a machinist.)

For twist rate I would shoot 225-300 grains so whatever works for that.

Another .429 wildcat discussion: http://www.savageshooters.com/showth...at-build/page2

[foxx]

PD, I just re-read your posts. You said you might "help out" on a reamer. That would be cool. I am still "exploring", but we should talk more as this progresses. There's gotta be a solution somewhere. Maybe there's an old one floating around somewhere. I am confident it could be made, but Lord knows what it would cost.

[foxx]

I think I found one. Maybe it's not that big of a deal to have them made. Hmmm... might be "in business."

[pdcullen]

In the AR world a push was made for the big bore pistol rounds (seems like 2007 or so) and 429 did not make the cut. Tromix tried both the 44 mag and the Automag.

The 45 cals did make it, with the 45 bushmaster and the 458 socom. In the 308 case 'class' there is the 45 Raptor.

I have not pushed cast 44 bullets to 2000 fps to see if they stay together (I do not have the means) but with hard cast and powder coating I am not too worried about velocity.

[jonbearman]

I don't know why the automag wouldn't work however how does it headspace? Does it have a scant shoulder or is it straight?

[foxx]

same as the 308, I assumed, but I don't know.

It's a straight wall cartridge.

[snowgetter1]

Should headspace on the case mouth.

[pdcullen]

Foxx, reading the MI bill, it allows up to 1.8 inch case length. http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(y3d...e=2013-HB-4283

That is the same as 460 S&W and 444 Marlin. I know this is a savage board but you can get 444 marlin CVA single shots very easily, and not need to reload. That would be future proof(er.)

[pdcullen]

Aaaaaand I just looked at the recoil table. 444 Marlin more than double 44 Mag. No bueno.

[foxx]

Well, not only that, the case length of the 444 Marlin is 2.250 inches. Don't know much about the 460 S&W, or its availability. I am considering loading lighter loads in 450BM for the kids... but a bit nervous about making "light loads". No experience with making any light loads, especially not with such large cases.

[bootsmcguire]

The rimmed round won't be your problem. The problem will be the short case length of the 44 mag or automag brass. If you are doing a single shot, then either should work. My 444 Marlin on a Striker action feeds fine. All I had to do was open up a .473 bolt face to .522" and viola.

If going single shot then go with a standard 44 Mag and be happy, other wise I would use your 450BM and just put a brake on it and get the kids some noise canceling electronic ear plugs.

Talk to Apache, he can get the 44 cal blanks and you should be able to rent the 44 Automag reamer easy enough. I remember seeing it on a rental list somewhere. Perhaps at 4D's website? IIRC my blank is a 1-20" twist and should stabilize even the heaviest 44 bullets.

[Nor Cal Mikie]

I had considered setting up a Savage for a "rimmed" case. Lots of rounds to choose from. I took a bolt head and had it opened up to fit the rimmed case. The extractor snaps over the rim so that part is taken care of. Not even thinking about repeater feeding. Single shot for sure. I was working with .256 Winchester brass but just about any rimmed brass should get you what you want. One step at a time till you get what you're going after.

[pdcullen]

Best I saw researching this was a 54R conversion, using a cone on the barrel 'face': http://www.shotgunnews.com/ask-the-g...-110-7-62x54r/

To be honest this is getting too exotic for my skills/mind at the moment.

[handirifle]

I would just look for a used H&R 44 mag single shot, and be done with it. They stopped making them but should be some available on the used market. Probably cost less than re-barreling a Savage.

[J.Baker]

Ok, I'll be the voice of reason here... Why not just go out and buy a lever gun in .44 Mag or .357 Mag? The Rossi's 92's are pretty cheap and of good quality. They're not up to Cowboy Action abuse, but they'll last more than a lifetime in a hunting role. They're also have a manual safety and are very light which makes them very kid friendly.

Another option would be the old Ruger 96/44 lever gun, but they're a bit pricey if/when you can even find one.

[Robinhood]

I know where to get my hands on about 250 lake city Match 30-06 cases already cut to length for the 44 auto mag. I was thinking about doing the same thing for an AR at one time. I might donate some of the cases for somebody to work with if they would like. Let me know if you need a few to play with. These have been sized but not reamed.