I believe in the theory of shoot until accuracy goes away, then clean. It seems to be the general consensus around here.
I've just recently begun having fun with my bolt gun (#10PH .223) at the range and I'm getting results I'm very happy with.
Since mounting up the new scope, I now have 50 rounds through it. I did see a noticeable shift in groups once the barrel had a few rounds through it, and it's shooting as tight a group now as I'm capable of shooting. 1/2 MOA is as good as I can personally shoot, and that's fine with me for a stock rifle. FWIW, Hornady 55 V-Max ammo.
I'm really hesitant to clean it. So I'm just wondering how many rounds you guys actually shoot before your accuracy goes away.
Then, do you do a full de-copper/scrub clean, or just a few wet/dry patches/bore snake type cleaning?
If the later, how often would a real de-copper type cleaning be required?
I know this is all fairly relative to your particular rifle/load, but I'm hoping for a rough idea of what to expect.
Thanks.
I shoot a match or session and then usually clean rifle when im back in my shop. Usually no more than 40-50 rounds between cleanings. I clean with butches wet patches maybe a nylon brush if I use a heavy carbon powder. Thats with aftermarket barrels, factory barrels usually need cleaned more often and takes longer to clean up.
A clean barrel is a happy barrel. Some may need a few down the tube to come back in but not cleaning will get a copper and carbon build up that is not good for accuracy.
300 ish rounds.
Really I try and time it so that if I have a competition or a hunt coming up I will usually, the week before, try and make it to the range. I will clean before that range session so that it has 100 or so rounds on it before I get to the competition.
There is a lot of different philosophies on this subject. With rimfires (.22's anyway) the barrel needs to be seasoned for the best accuracy, I do clean my .22's on a regular basis but not everytime I shoot them, about every 100 rounds or so, I only use a nylon brush in the chamber area, run a wet patch through the bore followed by a couple dry ones just to keep fowling to a minimum. As long as it is shooting good thats all I do to them, when accuracy starts to fail (round count differs rifle to rifle) I will give it a good scrubbing with bore cleaner and the nylon brush followed by alot of wet and dry patches until they come out clean. But it takes several rounds to re-season the barrel before they start shooting good again. With centerfires I do clean them everytime I have them out shooting, now I dont scrub them out but I do use a chamber brush to scrub out the throat area and I do run a quick nylon brush through the bore followed by good tight patches, Ive never noticed cleaning hurting the accuracy in a centerfire, .22's on the other hand where the bullets are lubed (even plated bullets, the thin plating acts as the lube) it does make a big difference until you get the barrel seasoned again.
Nut has it spot on, I belong to 3 different clubs and shoot over 30 matches a year with various rifles and most guys clean how he described. I have been gunsmithing for almost 20 yrs now and have seen alot of damage to barrels from not cleaning and cleaning to much. Find what works for you and have fun shootin!!!
I keep a barrel log of fired rounds and I notice the first signs of accuracy degrading at 400+ yds on that stock barrel around 153 rounds. I use a nylon brush a 1 piece Dewey rod and Hoppes #9.
I run the wet bush in from the chamber and scrub back and forth about 10 strokes then run 3-4 patches thru. It is just enough to clean but not a squeeky clean. I have been doing this for years and it doesn't affect the cold bore POI like a completely and thoroughly clean bore does.
The above is based on my handloads. I know some folk(Precision rifle) who get 500+ rounds between cleaning. YMMV tho.
My Butler Creek barrels all came with a note saying cleaning was not necessary unless an obstruction was present. Those barrels have held squirrel accurate for over 8,000 rounds with no cleaning.
As for my centerfire rifles, The only one I ever followed was my FP in 308. That went over 500 before I lost MOA @ 500. I typically don't do a full on scrub until that range. I do snake it around every hundred or so.
I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.
You guys must be kidding. A clean bore is a happy bore. If I shoot a hunting rifle or pistol or shotgun,it gets cleaned with tender loving care after dishing out a ton of money.
Willing to give back for what the sport has done for me!
No Joke.
Do you wash your car, or change your oil after EVERY TIME you drive it?
I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.
I don't clean after every single trip to the range, but I think the above analogy is a pretty inapt one. That said...when I was 16 and chasing tail I think I washed my car ('69 Chevelle, Malibu Edition) just about every day.Originally Posted by darkker
I'm 18 and I wash my car every sunday. Wax every 6 months.I don't clean after every single trip to the range, but I think the above analogy is a pretty inapt one. That said...when I was 16 and chasing tail I think I washed my car ('69 Chevelle, Malibu Edition) just about every day.
If I had to clean 3 or 4 rifles or handguns Once or twice a week I would just quit shooting em.
Mine are pretty lucky if they get the dust/dirt blown off between range sessions.
I did run a couple 1911s and a glock through the dishwasher once.... Worked pretty good
:)
Don't think it is INEPT, at all.
Jon's statement about a "clean bore is a happy one" works for him, and that's great. By virtue of the fact I hold MOA @ the 1K mark with a dirty bore, I see no reason to think mine is "un-happy". I don't think my car needs cleaned every time I use it, NOR my rifles.
My 308 has over 3500 rounds shot through it, with VERY minimal cleaning and still my 1,000 yard gun. Everyone is different, but the cost of my rifle spread over that many rounds is not " a ton of money" to me. $475/3500=$0.1357/shot.
Bullets alone are more than that.
rr,
I agree, but don't let your wife catch you doing that....
I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.
Neither do I...which is why I explicitely said "inApt". (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inapt?s=t) But thanks for the spelling lesson anyway.
Which is fine. But there's still no meaningful analogy to be drawn between the frequency with which you should clean your car (which is an issue of aesthetics) and how often one should clean a firearm (which is an issue of wear, tear and accuracy degradation). Hence the term, "inApt analogy".
Same usage for both definitions, also why I made mention in the first, post of the oil change; or my lack of accuracy degradation in the second.
Regardless, If Jonbearman is happy with cleaning constantly, I say CHEERS! to him.
The OP however, was asking for thoughts on the matter which I gave.
Last edited by darkker; 09-12-2012 at 09:24 PM.
I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.
Like you said, no consensus...
We'll sometimes go a few hundred rounds between Wipe-Out cleanings, sometimes less. Usually takes a few to a dozen rounds or so after cleaning to get the copper fouling back in place...
FWIW, there was an episode of Guns 'N Ammo a couple of weeks ago where they interviewed a Special Forces sniper instructor.
He said that in the past year or so, they have adopted a "no copper removal" policy, unless the weapon is showing noticeable degradation of accuracy. Their consensus was that it could take 40 rounds or so to get a rifle back to sub minute accuracy after copper removal- so they don't do it.
They use M-Pro 7, five wet patches followed by ten dry patches...then repeat. What I thought was odd...and a bit over the top for me...was that they remove the jag, before running it back through the barrel and out the breech. Really, how much damage can a brass jag do to the bore, compared to a bullet traveling at 2500 fps? So, they do a thorough carbon cleaning after each range session- just not copper removal.
Anyway, apparently that's what the military is doing. While it does take a few shots to get back to "optimal" after a thorough cleaning, I don't find it's a few dozen as they stated.
But, every barrel is different. My thinking is that a barrel with more imperfections- and more areas that need to be filled with copper for best accuracy- will react most negatively to copper removal and require more rounds to restore accuracy.
Last edited by tobnpr; 09-12-2012 at 09:35 PM.
The reason for removing the jag is to prevent it from nicking the crown as its pulled back in.
Same reason people use bore guides on the breech.
Experience shows that, at least in low-humidity environments or with stainless steel barrels, cleaning the barrel is pretty much an issue of aesthetics, too. Of course there are those who would argue that washing the car is an issue of wear, tear, and resale-value degradation, since failing to wash off salt, dirt, road grime, etc. could degrade the paint (and corrosion protection) over time.
There are specific times & reasons that I'll clean WAY more than 'normal.' Normally, however, a flood of CLP and a Bore Snake is all my barrels get until they start behaving badly, except for the 22 rimfires which I don't clean the bores on. Marlin was explicit that I should not, and again experience shows there's no benefit to me, and there's nearly always harm in terms of accuracy, so I don't do it.
The analogy being drawn was between cleaning your barrel after every shooting and washing your car after every time you drive it. In that context, washing your car is purely an issue of aesthetics. That is, unless you substantively alter the analogy by further qualifying the latter portion with "after every time you drive on salted roads during winter conditions", etc. Kind of like the the difference between saying "every time you shoot" vs. "every time you shoot using corrosive ammo".
Asking how often you wash your car is simply nonsensical as a basis for determining how frequently one should clean one's gun. It's apples and oranges.
Okay, with no qualifiers at all, I disagree that "there's no meaningful analogy." In point of fact, cleaning after every use (shooting & cleaning) is quite analogous to cleaning after every use (driving and washing). Cleaning a barrel after every time you shoot is purely an issue of aesthetics. As with washing the car, there may be specific conditions under which a person should clean their barrel after a shooting session. Absent those specific conditions, cleaning every time is purely aesthetic. Cleaning after every session, and cleaning after every session, is similarly (non-)sensical.
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