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  1. #1
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    5.56 / .223 brass difference?

    I have 1000 rounds of once fired Winchester 5.56 brass. I know the difference between 5.56 and .223 loaded ammo, but I'm unaware of any difference in the raw brass. I do know that military (LC) brass is thicker and can increase pressure, but I'm talking about Winchester brass.

    Is there any reason why I can't load the 5.56 brass to .223 specs and use it in my #10PH with it's .223 chamber??

    I plan on using SB (small base) die for the first loading, then fire form and neck size after that.

  2. #2
    Basic Member Jamie's Avatar
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    Only thing to really worry about is the crimp ring around the primer pocket. If the brass has that crimp you will have to cut it out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    Only thing to really worry about is the crimp ring around the primer pocket. If the brass has that crimp you will have to cut it out.
    cut it out or swage it out, the only other real difference is the headstamp. L C, W C C, and such are military and the commercial is stamped 223Rem. The newer true nato approved ammo will have the nato stamp on it, a + inside a o. You should try to keep it in lots with the same headstamp as there are differences between between lots of both military and commercial brass.
    Last edited by earl39; 09-01-2012 at 01:31 PM.
    "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:32 (New King James Version)

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    One of the changes made in 1967 to prevent jamming in the M16 rifle (case head separations) was to make mil-spec brass out of higher quality brass. This means you will not find a better or stronger .223 case for reloading than LC 5.56 brass.

    After Winchester lost the contract to produce military ammunition at Lake City, Winchester sold off its brass manufacturing capabilities and now buys brass from the cheapest vendor to produce its Winchester cases.

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    Why small base die? That's only if you're shooting lever actions or some semi's. I've never had to use SB dies,even for AR's.I think it works the brass too much and shortens life.Just use regular FL sizer the first time and NS after that.
    "An armed society is a polite society"
    "...shall not be infringed" What's the confusion?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Texas Solo View Post
    I have 1000 rounds of once fired Winchester 5.56 brass. I know the difference between 5.56 and .223 loaded ammo, but I'm unaware of any difference in the raw brass. I do know that military (LC) brass is thicker and can increase pressure, but I'm talking about Winchester brass.

    Is there any reason why I can't load the 5.56 brass to .223 specs and use it in my #10PH with it's .223 chamber??

    I plan on using SB (small base) die for the first loading, then fire form and neck size after that.
    There is NO SPOON!!!
    1)There is no difference in brass
    2)I have the same book that says the brass is thicker, and pressures. Read #1
    3) Winchester sold their brass cartridge business in 2007. So do you mean Winchester brass, or brass with the Winchester name? Again read #1
    4) The specs are the same, Read #1
    5)Small base dies are for when brass has been run through very loose, or Scalloped chambers, such as on some HK, and FAL autos. IME RCBS dies are at the LARGE end of the spec, and have had an issue along the way. With my standard Lee F/L dies, there has never been a need for the SB dies.
    UNLESS you specifically buy special purpose brass, any difference is merely manufacturing tollerances.
    If I could get the upload to work, I'd post capacities...
    I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.

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    Basic Member darkker's Avatar
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    I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.

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    I have a lot of military 5.56 LC brass from the mid 70s and it has the same capacity as new commercial or military brass.

    Most of those references are geared towards 30-06 which often does have capacity differences between military and commercial.

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    Basic Member darkker's Avatar
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    No, not on purpose.
    The 30-06 Springfield has ONLY ever had one spec, same as the 7.62 Nato/308.
    The 223/5.56 has a LEADE and small pressure difference ONLY. But the brass spec is still the same.
    I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.

  10. #10
    Basic Member darkker's Avatar
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    I would LOVE to see any tangible evidence of that.
    The "jamming" issues were a combination of things.
    1) a "Least-costing" decision to change powder, AFTER the testing and contract was issued.
    2) No cleaning equipment issued
    3) addition of chrome lined chamber and bore.

    I question the timing of "Winchester losing the contract" for operation of the LC plant, but the military buys from several sources regardless of that. Winchester sold it's powder production facility around 2000. They sold their brass cartridge business about 2007.

    ATK has the contract to operate the Lake City Arsenal, and has been running the Radford Arsenal up until a recent JV with General Dynamics. It appears now at least, that the Lake City Arsenal is little more than an assembly plant; with components coming from various sources. As an example The gunpowder is coming from GD out of Florida.
    I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by darkker View Post
    I would LOVE to see any tangible evidence of that.
    The "jamming" issues were a combination of things.
    1) a "Least-costing" decision to change powder, AFTER the testing and contract was issued.
    2) No cleaning equipment issued
    3) addition of chrome lined chamber and bore.

    I question the timing of "Winchester losing the contract" for operation of the LC plant, but the military buys from several sources regardless of that. Winchester sold it's powder production facility around 2000. They sold their brass cartridge business about 2007.

    ATK has the contract to operate the Lake City Arsenal, and has been running the Radford Arsenal up until a recent JV with General Dynamics. It appears now at least, that the Lake City Arsenal is little more than an assembly plant; with components coming from various sources. As an example The gunpowder is coming from GD out of Florida.

    darkker
    You need to read more about the M16 rifle and the history of that time. The brass is a higher quality and it needs to withstand higher than normal .223 chamber pressures, 62,000 psi for the M855 round.

    Page 265

    The case hardness problem.




    M-16
    THE RIFLE AND THE MYTH

    http://www.bobcat.ws/rifle.htm

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    Ed i am just wondering just where the 62,000 psi comes from. Milspec is for 55,000 with the m197 high pressure test loads running 70,000 psi. the m855 is the highest pressure of any 5.56x45 load other than the high pressure. Except the restricted range plastic bullet loads most of the rest of the milspec loads are around 52,000 psi. All this is as of 1994 mil-spec. Maybe they have upped the pressure since then but the m855 is speced to run 3025 fps 78 feet from the muzzle. You can find all this info at everyspec.com.
    "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:32 (New King James Version)

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    Quote Originally Posted by earl39 View Post
    Ed i am just wondering just where the 62,000 psi comes from. Milspec is for 55,000 with the m197 high pressure test loads running 70,000 psi. the m855 is the highest pressure of any 5.56x45 load other than the high pressure. Except the restricted range plastic bullet loads most of the rest of the milspec loads are around 52,000 psi. All this is as of 1994 mil-spec. Maybe they have upped the pressure since then but the m855 is speced to run 3025 fps 78 feet from the muzzle. You can find all this info at everyspec.com.
    From TM 43-0001-27
    The M197 is loaded to 52,000 cup
    The M855 is loaded to 55,000 cup

    Pressure measuring methods and readings
    The following pressures are the same BUT are measured using three different methods.

    SAAMI .223 copper crusher 52,000 cup
    SAMMI .223 transducer piezo 55,000 psi
    European CIP transducer piezo 62,000 psi

    The M197 round is loaded to the same rated chamber pressure as the .223 Remington (52,000 cup)

    The M855 round is loaded 3,000 cup higher pressure than the M197 or 55,000 cup

    NOTE: All pressures including cup are still read as pounds per square inch and this is why the Army TM lists them as psi BUT the copper crusher method was used at the time these readings were taken.

    As you can see below the throat or freebore between the .223 and the 5.56 can cause a major pressure difference.



    5.56 vs .223 – What You Know May Be Wrong

    http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/
    Last edited by bigedp51; 09-06-2012 at 12:51 AM.

  14. #14
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    Here is the specs taken from mil-spec sheet TM 43-0001-27. As you can see it clearly shows no matter how they measured it the M197 is a proof load and you have your figures wrong. There is a lot of hoopla out there about the 223 vs 5.56 and if you look at your graph you will see that even your 62,000 psi load in an uneven test didn't break the 60,000 psi mark. Also if you look it up copper units of pressure are always listed as cup and pounds per square inch are listed as psi That is an industry and world wide standard. Yes there are a lot of things people don't know abut the black rifle but there is also a lot of myth out there about it also.
    Now we can let everryone make their own decission and get back to the matter of the brass being the same or different.


    CARTRIDGE, 5.56MM, HIGH PRESSURE TEST, M197
    Type Classification:
    STD - AMCTC 4484.
    Use:
    Rifles, 5.56mm, M16 and M16A1. The cartridge is
    used to proof test weapons during manufacture, test, or
    repair.
    Description:
    HIGH PRESSURE TEST Cartridge. The cartridge is
    identified by a stannic-stained (silvered) or nickel-plated
    cartridge case.
    Function:
    The cartridge is loaded with a special propellant to
    produce pressures substantially in excess of the service
    round.
    Tabulated Data:
    DODAC...............................1305-A070
    UNO serial number .............0012
    UNO proper shipping
    name ..................................Cartridges for
    weapons, inert projectile
    Weight ...............................174 gr
    Length................................. 2.26 in. (57.4 mm)
    Tracer .................................NA
    Primer.................................Percussion
    Fuze....................................NA
    Explosive:
    Type ................................NA
    Weight ............................NA
    Incendiary:
    Type ................................NA
    Weight .............................NA
    Propellant:
    Type ...............................SR 7641
    Weight-............................16.7 gr
    Projectile:
    Weight .............................56 gr
    Performance:
    Chamber pressure...............70,000 psi
    Velocity ..............................NA
    Shipping and Storage Data:
    Quantity-distance class/
    SCG ................................1.4S
    Storage code.......................Class V
    10-9

    TM 43-0001-27
    CARTRIDGE, 5.56MM, BALL, M855
    Type Classification:
    STD - MSR 05826003.
    Use:
    Machine Gun, 5.56mm, M249E1; and Rifle, 5.56mm,
    M16A2. The cartridge is intended for use against
    personnel and unarmored targets.
    Description:
    BALL Cartridge. The cartridge is identified by a green
    bullet tip.
    Tabulated Data:
    DODAC...............................1305-A059
    UNO serial number .............0012
    UNO proper shipping
    name...................................Cartridges for
    weapons, inert projectile
    Weight ................................190 gr
    Length.................................2.26 in. (57.4 mm)
    Tracer .................................NA
    Primer.................................Percussion
    Fuze ...................................NA
    Explosive:
    Type ................................NA
    Weight .............................NA
    Incendiary:
    Type ...............................NA
    Weight .............................NA
    Propellant:
    Type ...............................WC 844
    Weight ............................26.1 gr
    Projectile:
    Weight .............................62 gr
    Performance:
    Chamber pressure ..............55,000 psi
    Velocity ..............................3025 fps, 78 ft from
    muzzle
    Shipping and Storage Data:
    Quantity-distance class/
    SCG.................................1.4S
    Storage code ......................Class V
    DOT shipping class .............C
    DOT designation .................SMALL ARMS
    AMMUNITION
    Drawing number .................9342862
    References:
    DARCOM 700-3-2
    TM 9-1300-206
    TM 9-1305-201-20&P
    10-19
    "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:32 (New King James Version)

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    TM 43-0001-27
    CARTRIDGE, 5.56MM, BALL, M193
    Chamber pressure...............52,000 psi

    earl, if we use your guess work, what would the pressure reading be above if you converted 52,000 psi to cup. I'm wondering what you have to say because this pressure would be below the rated chamber pressure of the .223 and we wouldn't have the SAAMI interchangeability pressure warning for the .223 and 5.56x45 that came out in 1979. This warning came out because the Army gave waivers to munitions plants to exceed the standard pressure of 52,000 cup and allowed some ammunition to be loaded to 60,000 cup with some lots of powder.

    NATO EPVAT pressure testing standards
    5.56x45 mm
    Service Pressure Pmax 62,366 psi
    Proof Round Pressure Requirement 77,958 psi
    Pressure recorded in NATO design EPVAT Barrel with Kistler 6215 Transducer or by equipment to Commission Internationale Permanente pour l’épreuve des Armes á Feu Portatives (C.I.P.) requirements

    Copper units pressure is still pounds per square inch because psi is what we use in the U.S.
    When the transducer method came into use the pressure reading were labeled psi to differentiate between copper units pressure and the transducer method. BOTH readings are pounds per square inch but are measured differently just as the CIP pressure are when measured at the case mouth for military EPVAT testing.

    On top of this if you would buy the book below and read it you wouldn't be questioning what I have written here about pressures and the higher standards for the 5.56 brass cartridge cases.



    Below, my five gallon buckets of Lake City 5.56x45 cartridge cases made to higher standards than commercial cases, you can't see the third bucket of Remington .223 cartridge cases ready for reloading.

    Last edited by bigedp51; 09-06-2012 at 01:54 PM.

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    Since you guys are having this contest anyway, I thought I'd mention that:

    1) NATO EPVAT, though it uses the same max pressure number as CIP, measures pressure in a different place than CIP (case mouth for NATO vs. 25mm forward of the case head for CIP), which means that at any given nominal reported pressure, the NATO measurement location translates to slightly higher chamber pressure than CIP's method (or SAAMI's, which measures in essentially the same place as CIP).

    2) The US Army used psi 'forever' in reporting pressure figures obtained using copper crusher equipment. In the late '60s when it was finally universally accepted that copper crushers don't measure pressures quite the same (nor as accurately) as piezo transducers, SAAMI instituted "C.U.P." as a unit of pressure measurement. The military changed over, too, but what they reported in 'psi' for most of the 20th Century was in fact CUP, and the two are not the same.

    3) That nifty pressure differential chart shows more rifle-to-rifle variation than it shows variation between the 2 types of ammunition.

    Okay, that's all I have. Carry on with your contest. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MZ5 View Post
    Since you guys are having this contest anyway, I thought I'd mention that:

    1) NATO EPVAT, though it uses the same max pressure number as CIP, measures pressure in a different place than CIP (case mouth for NATO vs. 25mm forward of the case head for CIP), which means that at any given nominal reported pressure, the NATO measurement location translates to slightly higher chamber pressure than CIP's method (or SAAMI's, which measures in essentially the same place as CIP).

    2) The US Army used psi 'forever' in reporting pressure figures obtained using copper crusher equipment. In the late '60s when it was finally universally accepted that copper crushers don't measure pressures quite the same (nor as accurately) as piezo transducers, SAAMI instituted "C.U.P." as a unit of pressure measurement. The military changed over, too, but what they reported in 'psi' for most of the 20th Century was in fact CUP, and the two are not the same.

    3) That nifty pressure differential chart shows more rifle-to-rifle variation than it shows variation between the 2 types of ammunition.

    Okay, that's all I have. Carry on with your contest. :)
    Dear Contestant AKA MZ5

    NATO EPVAT testing is the exact same testing method that the European CIP uses and are one in the same and both pressures are measured at the case mouth. This means in Europe military and civilian testing standards are the same BUT the Europeans do NOT use American SAAMI chamber pressure standards and methods.

    When asked about pressures in a earlier posting I listed SAAMI 52,000 cup, SAAMI tranducer 55,000 psi and European CIP (NATO EPVAT) 62,000 psi. These three pressures are the exact same pressure measured by different means and standards. I listed these pressure so our different age groups would understand depending on which method they grew up with.

    TM 43-0001-27 leaves many questions about M193 and M855 rounds chamber pressures, meaning is one of the pressures listed as a typo or are both pressures in CUP.

    CARTRIDGE, 5.56MM, BALL, M193 Chamber pressure...............52,000 psi
    CARTRIDGE, 5.56MM, BALL, M855 Chamber pressure ..............55,000 psi

    Second, traditionally military cartridge cases were made thicker and heavier to withstand larger diameter chambers and longer headspaced chambers than their civilian counterparts.

    During the testing phase of the M16 standard thickness commercial cartridge cases were used and problems arose with jamming and case head separations. Due to the small case capacity and Remington/DuPont inability to make IMR powder to military pressure and velocity standards a higher standard of brass was used and not diminish internal case capacity.

    And the ball powder used in the M16 that caused the jamming problem was the same exact powder used in the M14 rifle and it was used because of its loading density.

    Thank you MZ5 for being a contestant.
    That nifty pressure differential you referred to was taken with a strain gauge glued to the barrel and used a commercial cartridge as a pressure reference calibration point.

    Also, I use a tire pressure gauge calibrated in psi, it doesn't give pressures in cup or some silly European metric equivalent.
    Have a nice day. :-)
    Last edited by bigedp51; 09-06-2012 at 04:30 PM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigedp51 View Post
    NATO EPVAT testing is the exact same testing method that the European CIP uses and are one in the same and both pressures are measured at the case mouth.
    No, it is not the same, though this fallacy is WIDELY reported. CIP has NEVER measured pressure at the case mouth, excepting for rimfires. See the information from Hartmut Broemel at this location

    Quote Originally Posted by bigedp51 View Post
    When asked about pressures in a earlier posting I listed SAAMI 52,000 cup, SAAMI tranducer 55,000 psi and European CIP (NATO EPVAT) 62,000 psi. These three pressures are the exact same pressure measured by different means and standards.
    No, they are not. The different equipment and different methods will yield different pressure numbers for the exact same shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigedp51 View Post
    That nifty pressure differential you referred to was taken with a strain gauge glued to the barrel and used a commercial cartridge as a pressure reference calibration point.
    What the hell are you talking about? See above.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by MZ5 View Post
    No, it is not the same, though this fallacy is WIDELY reported. CIP has NEVER measured pressure at the case mouth, excepting for rimfires. See the information from Hartmut Brummel at this location

    No, they are not. The different equipment and different methods will yield different pressure numbers for the exact same shot.

    What the hell are you talking about? See above.
    From your same link a poster wrote the following, and a link to a forum posting is NOT proven data.

    "Quote:
    CIP has NEVER measured any pressure at case mouth

    VihtaVuori believes otherwise.

    Since I also consider H. Broemel to be expert in this area, I am unable to resolve which is correct."

    NATO EPVAT testing
    Pressure recorded in NATO design EPVAT Barrel with Kistler 6215 Transducer or by equipment to Commission Internationale Permanente pour l’épreuve des Armes á Feu Portatives (C.I.P.) requirements.

    And I'm not going over the pressure equivalents between cup, psi and CIP again because you don't understand them.

    And what the hell are YOU talking about, post some established written facts or stay home. And WHAT does this have to do with the military using higher quality brass when making 5.56x45 NATO cartridge cases?????
    Last edited by bigedp51; 09-07-2012 at 12:18 AM.

  20. #20
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    Ok Ed if SAMMI came out with the warning in 1979 why is M855 ammo even being compared since it was not brought into service until 1982 which acording to my little back woods math is a full 3 years after the warning and the specs i showed are according to the same math 15 years after the warning. Do you think there could be a chance that maybe knowing how both the gaverment and some establishments work that this could have been one of the things that have slipped thru the crack? Also all you are showing is that different barrels show different pressures. We as reloaders have known that for years. I learned that back in the 60's when my great-uncle was teaching me about reloading. Your graph shows a standard using a 55 grain load and compare it to a 62 grain load neither of which go past the 60,000 psi mark. All the graph proves is the barrels used with the chambers in each produce different pressure.
    As for CUP being the same as PSI. NOT A CHANCE.. There is no consistant conversion. This is taken from WIKI.
    Comparing units
    While CUP and LUP numbers were intended to be comparable to the crushing power of a given pressure in psi, the numbers are not equivalent. Since a longer duration, lower pressure pulse can crush the cylinder as much as a shorter duration, higher pressure pulse, CUP and LUP pressures frequently register lower than actual peak pressures (as measured by a transducer) by up to 20%. For example, the SAAMI maximum pressure for the 7.62 x 51 mm is given as 52000 psi (CUP), or 62000 psi (430 MPa); the .45-70, on the other extreme, is listed as 28000 in both CUP and psi (190 MPa). SAAMI standards for a given cartridge may be expressed in CUP units, LUP units, or in standard units of pressure (psi or MPa).

    Notice it states they are not the same..
    Now was there a pressure problem back in 1979? Maybe but we are not talking about 33 years ago. 33 years ago i was playing NAVY on an aircraft carrier in the Med. That boat has been taken out of service so like the ammo problem here if the chamber the round was designed is used nothing is over pressure. Given 2 different chambers with different lenght throats and angle of leade i can take ammo with standard SAMMI pressures and show they are unsafe with high pressure in one and safe in the other. The key is use what the design is for.
    Now is there a difference in the case capacity? Not really as it changes from lot to lot. Is there a difference in materials used to make military brass compared to commercial brass? I for one would not be a bit surprised. I do know that the DoD specs out almost everything and what they don't spec out is because they haven't figured out how to. So i have no reason to doubt the better brass statement and i have found that for my loading military brass in 223, 308 and 30-06 tend to last longer than most commercial brass.
    Last edited by earl39; 09-06-2012 at 05:52 PM.
    "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:32 (New King James Version)

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    earl39

    Did you even read the reference material I linked, did you read my posting about the SAAMI warning in 1979 which dealt with M193 ammunition and the pressure waiver granted to raise the chamber pressure to 60,000 cup with curtain lots of powder to meet velocity military requirements.

    I also didn't say CUP and PSI were the same I said:
    SAAMI 52,000 cup equals = SAAMI transducer 55,000 psi and equals = CIP (EPVAT) 62,000 psi tranducer taken at the case mouth.

    ALL three of these readings are the same exact pressure they just use different equipment to measure the same pressure.

    BUT the pressures readings can be different depending on the throat or free bore of the individual rifle

    .223 SAAMI free bore .0250
    5.56x45 NATO free bore .0500
    Free bore in my Stevens 200 .223 .0566

    I suggest you expand your reading beyond WIKI and learn a little more about the subject and spend a little more time reading what I wrote and NOT what you think I wrote as you were speed reading over my postings.

    And the subject is brass cartridge cases for the .223/5.56 and not WIKI or what you did in the Navy.
    Last edited by bigedp51; 09-06-2012 at 06:31 PM.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigedp51 View Post

    1)
    traditionally military cartridge cases were made thicker and heavier to withstand larger diameter chambers and longer headspaced chambers than their civilian counterparts.

    2)
    During the testing phase of the M16 standard thickness commercial cartridge cases were used and problems arose with jamming and case head separations. Due to the small case capacity and Remington/DuPont inability to make IMR powder to military pressure and velocity standards a higher standard of brass was used and not diminish internal case capacity.

    3)
    And the ball powder used in the M16 that caused the jamming problem was the same exact powder used in the M14 rifle and it was used because of its loading density.

    4)
    Thank you MZ5 for being a contestant.
    That nifty pressure differential you referred to was taken with a strain gauge glued to the barrel and used a commercial cartridge as a pressure reference calibration point.

    5)
    Also, I use a tire pressure gauge calibrated in psi, it doesn't give pressures in cup or some silly European metric equivalent.
    Have a nice day. :-)
    If you want honest chronological info about the cartridges history, AND the weapons it fires in; try this:
    http://www.thegunzone.com/556dw.html
    Here are some of the highlights from this source, in rebuttal to your claims.

    1 - Maybe, however the headspace is NOT longer; the leade is longer. The original chamber had the exact same throat, read about the meeting with Remington below. It also had a 14 twist, then 12 twist, and then.... you get the idea.
    In fact American Rifleman wrote an article on the AR15 in May 1962, proposing that they changed from the 14 TO the 12 twist. They had a brief over-winter test that showed poor bullet stability. During congressional hearing during that month, the USAF was asked to rebuke that magazine article. McNamera signed off on the change to a 12-twist in July '63.

    2 & 3 - The "testing phase" was was so long, which powder do you mean? April 63 they were using IMR-4475.
    Secretary Vance submitted a memo to McNamera, titled "Standardization and Procurement of the AR-15 Rifle" in which was specifically stated that ammo should be procured competitively from commercial sources.
    Sept. '63 - Cartridge, 5.56mm Ball, M193 was officially type-classified. It spec'd a Rem designed bullet @ 3250 fps with IMR-4475 to 52,000 psi. Ohlin complained about that powder and some case specs. Rem also about the case, and wanted to bump the pressure limit by 1K. Federal wanted an extra 1K psi above Rem.
    Dec. 63 The USAF gets lots of ammo with WC846, which is your claim. 846's usage had nothing to do with fill volume. It had to do with it being already available, and meeting the spec, period. Unfortunately in Frankford's 8th memo, the one outlining the "fouling issues" came from commercial lots of IMR-4475...OOppps. The primers ultimately came into question for containing Antimony Sulfide, and Calcium cillicide.
    Jan. '64 - the big 3(Ohlin, Rem, Federal) met with the army to talk powder and pressures. Rem claimed the army mis-read the original print, so the chamber was THEN changed. There is also a pressure waiver for M193 ammo. THAT is where the individual cartridge pressure of 60,000psi came from; NOT the average operating pressure. Under that waiver a million rounds were authorized. Testing was ALSO done with: CR-8136, HPC-10.
    April 64' Both CR-8136 & WC-846 are authorized for use. In 65 so was EX-8208-4, and later 8208M.
    Sept. 64 - Frankford did a study on the case specs. That was completed in October. No metalurgical controls or changes were deemed needed.

    4 - That nifty glued strain gauge is a very well established, and accurate system. If you read the article referenced, the author consulted ammo manufacturers about his method; and was told it was sound.

    5 - Probably so does your thermometer, neither of which is concerning the issue, nor helpful to it.

    I'm glad your book was entertaining to you, but it doesn't seem to be the complete history of the cartridge and weapon systems.
    Last edited by darkker; 09-06-2012 at 07:43 PM.
    I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkker View Post
    If you want honest chronological info about the cartridges history, AND the weapons it fires in; try this:
    http://www.thegunzone.com/556dw.html
    Here are some of the highlights from this source, in rebuttal to your claims.

    1 - Maybe, however the headspace is NOT longer; the leade is longer. The original chamber had the exact same throat, read about the meeting with Remington below. It also had a 14 twist, then 12 twist, and then.... you get the idea.
    In fact American Rifleman wrote an article on the AR15 in May 1962, proposing that they changed from the 14 TO the 12 twist. They had a brief over-winter test that showed poor bullet stability. During congressional hearing during that month, the USAF was asked to rebuke that magazine article. McNamera signed off on the change to a 12-twist in July '63.

    2 & 3 - The "testing phase" was was so long, which powder do you mean? April 63 they were using IMR-4475.
    Secretary Vance submitted a memo to McNamera, titled "Standardization and Procurement of the AR-15 Rifle" in which was specifically stated that ammo should be procured competitively from commercial sources.
    Sept. '63 - Cartridge, 5.56mm Ball, M193 was officially type-classified. It spec'd a Rem designed bullet @ 3250 fps with IMR-4475 to 52,000 psi. Ohlin complained about that powder and some case specs. Rem also about the case, and wanted to bump the pressure limit by 1K. Federal wanted an extra 1K psi above Rem.
    Dec. 63 The USAF gets lots of ammo with WC846, which is your claim. 846's usage had nothing to do with fill volume. It had to do with it being already available, and meeting the spec, period. Unfortunately in Frankford's 8th memo, the one outlining the "fouling issues" came from commercial lots of IMR-4475...OOppps. The primers ultimately came into question for containing Antimony Sulfide, and Calcium cillicide.
    Jan. '64 - the big 3(Ohlin, Rem, Federal) met with the army to talk powder and pressures. Rem claimed the army mis-read the original print, so the chamber was THEN changed. There is also a pressure waiver for M193 ammo. THAT is where the individual cartridge pressure of 60,000psi came from; NOT the average operating pressure. Under that waiver a million rounds were authorized. Testing was ALSO done with: CR-8136, HPC-10.
    April 64' Both CR-8136 & WC-846 are authorized for use. In 65 so was EX-8208-4, and later 8208M.
    Sept. 64 - Frankford did a study on the case specs. That was completed in October. No metalurgical controls or changes were deemed needed.

    4 - That nifty glued strain gauge is a very well established, and accurate system. If you read the article referenced, the author consulted ammo manufacturers about his method; and was told it was sound.

    5 - Probably so does your thermometer, neither of which is concerning the issue, nor helpful to it.

    I'm glad your book was entertaining to you, but it doesn't seem to be the complete history of the cartridge and weapon systems.
    I should go watch the Democratic Convention it would be far more entertaining but........................

    1. The base diameter of the 5.56x45 chamber is .002 bigger than the .223

    2. The Base-to-Shoulder length is .004 longer on the 5.56 than the .223

    3. Therefore the 5.56x45 military chamber is fatter and longer and you don't know what your talking about in your number 1

    4. Who cares what the NRA has to say about the M16.

    5. The winter test and other test were delaying actions by the Army because they didn't want the M16 rifle and wanted to keep the M14 and the Springfield Armory open for M14 production. In testimony before Congress Remington stated they were told by the Army to make defective 5.56 ammunition to delay and hold up Colt M16 production and a contract award.

    6. Remington could not produce IMR-4475 in the quanities needed and still keep the strict pressure and velosity standards set by the Army. If the velocity requirements had been dropped 50 fps the Remington powder would have passed the production requirements. Because of this the Army used the same reclaimed ball powder used in the M14 rifle and ball powder has a higher loading density.

    7. In September 1966 the Frankfort arsenal did a requirement study on case hardness controls and gave the ammunition manufactures six months to adjust their production lines. This came about because of case extraction difficulties in Viet Nam. (you are cherry picking and editing your answers to make yourself look good and are not telling the whole truth)

    8. That "nifty glued strain gauge" was calibrated with a factory loaded cartridges, of which NONE of the ammunition manufactures would give him their chamber pressure readings. Quote: "Of the manufacturers that responded, none informed me that my maximum pressure results were inaccurate (although they were understandably reluctant to disclose their proprietary data)." Again you are being misleading and trying to fool the readers of this posting for your own gain by misquoting what was actually said.

    9. I said nothing about a thermometer, I said my TIRE PRESSURE gauge was calibrated in psi and not cup or some silly metric standard.

    10. And my books are the complete two volume set on the history of the M16 rifle and not misleading quotes from a webpage called "the gunzone" and a subsidiary of WIKI. And your postings were far less educational and entertaining than watching the Democratic Convention. When do you think you will drop all your red white and blue balloons and supply more misquotes and misinformation?
    Have a real nice day

    Last edited by bigedp51; 09-06-2012 at 09:43 PM.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigedp51 View Post
    1. The base diameter of the 5.56x45 chamber is .002 bigger than the .223

    2. The Base-to-Shoulder length is .004 longer on the 5.56 than the .223

    3. Therefore the 5.56x45 military chamber is fatter and longer and you don't know what your talking about in your number 1
    Uh... what? Where are you getting this from? I'm looking at all 3 case (SAAMI's 223 Rem, CIP's 223 Rem, and NATO's 5.56x45mm) drawings and these dimensions are identical. Same body diameter at both the 'base' (web immediately forward of the extractor groove) and the shoulder, same head-to-shoulder length, and same case head diameter. There is the allowance for a 0.001" diameter difference across the diameter of the tapered end/face of the rim, which has nothing to do with either the size, capacity, nor taper of the case.

    Now, if you're using that reamer dimension diagram to try to extrapolate brass/cartridge dimensions, then I can see where you might make incorrect assumptions. However, to reiterate for clarity: Cartridge dimensions are identical.
    Last edited by MZ5; 09-06-2012 at 11:15 PM.

  25. #25
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    Ed you are good at picking and choosing to fit your point of view but why didn't you show this little graph from the article you referenced.



    if the image worked it shows a 5.56 chamber with higher pressure than the 223 chamber. Yes i have read the article before and just for good measure i read it again so maybe you should reread it.

    If you read it really close the arthor says that only under extream conditions of bare minimun chamber dimensions would a dangerous situation arise. He also states thta this condition can arise in both the 223 chamber and 5.56. As to your freebore comment you should look at the reamer prints also listed in your referenced article. One of the 5.56 reameres show a freebore of 0.025. As stated in your choice of material not all chambers are the same. And as for your tire gauge only showing psi i am glad you have one that old that the kids have not found a way to break or lose. Mine shows psi and kpa (i think it is kpa at least as i am not looking at it).
    "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:32 (New King James Version)

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