Load Development: How to?

[handsomerob]

I know a lot of you on this forum reload. I have a pretty good set-up in my garage. As far as my load development. I've only tried different grains increasing in 1 grain increments. Right now I'm working with a Savage Axis in 308 Win. I understand the process of reloading but honestly I think I could use some knowledge in load development. How should one work up a load? Start with your powder and work your way up to find the best grain, then move to distance from lands? How do you know when your touching the lands and what your max OAL is. I could really use some input. Right now I have some 168gr Sierra Matchking and 168 Grain Hornady A-Max. I also have Varget and IMR 4895. Also full length resize or neck sizing? I really enjoy taking the axis out to the range but I want to know that I'm doing my load development right and not wasting my time when I could be shooting better. So i guess I'm asking when you get a new caliber/barrel and you start reloading what are the steps you go through before deciding on your guns favorite load or a load you might use in a competition.

[fgw_in_fla]

Use the same COL until you have a load somewhere in the ballpark. - .050" or .040" off the rifling is as good a place as any to start.

I whole grain spread is too much. You could pass the sweet spot & miss it. I usually start about 1/2 to 1gr above the lowest charge. Then a maximum of .5 (1/2gr) jump each time. I make 3 rounds of each. For example:
3 - 48.7gr
3 - 49.2gr
3 - 49.7gr
and so on.

I fire them in 3 round groups & see which group gives me the smallest group. Then, refine what I have. I make a few 3 round batches in .3gr increments. .3gr is the smallest increment I use unless I'm looking to touch up a load for a particular bullet / caliber. Sometimes different brands of brass or primers need a little fine tuning.

I'm sure some of the more "seasoned" reloaders will chime in to enlighten you...

Stay consistant & your ammo will.

Frank in Fla

[skypilot]

I can tell you how I do it, others will be along to further help.
I determine what practical weight bullet to shoot based on intended purpose, barrel twist, and expected longest shot.
I determine what powder based on acheiving a pretty full cartridge case. I then reduce max load for this combo(listed in reload manual) by 6-10%. This is my start load and on .223 I go up in .1 gr increments and on others(.243, .308) I go up in .2 gr increments.

I measure using a Sinclair OAL cartridge length tool AND an empty/deprimed case with a bullet seated long, chamber carefully and remove it and measure. Both should be the same length and this is the "lands."
You could just load to magazine length taking into consideration the "shortest/deepest" seating listed in the reload manual.

I load 3 of each load xx.1, 3 of xx.2, 3 xx.3, 3 xx.4, etc. I like to start about .005" off the lands.
I setup @ 400yds. and have a huge pallet size target with plenty of vertical target area. I place a video camera runnig to record the report and the POI. I shoot 1 shoot of #1(xx.1) 1 shot of #2(xx.2) and so on until all are shot.

If you can see the hits mark them on a spare target on the bench, if not review the video and mark you hits with what load hit where on the target. You will notice a grouping or "node" of bullet impacts together.
You now have found a rough sweet spot of say 3 powder weights. Do the same varying the seating depth or if you did the .2 increment try varying the powder .1 gr.

What you are looking for is no vertical grouping. Horizontal is okay as wind will vary that. We are looking for no vertical indicating good harmonics and consistant powder/seating.

I have developed @ 300 yds due to mirage, but I believe shorter than that is too hard to determine real meaningfull vertical and the load will let you down @ longer distances.


Just keep in mind the cost of this advice...I shoot a tactical setup and am not nor claim to be a Bench guy.


Cheers

[beartooth91]

I pick a bullet load it with three to four, different powders, starting just above the published minimum, usually one grain. Seating depth is determined using a Hornady L-N-L OAL gauge with a modified case. Many advise seating the bullet to where it just touches the lands. I've been doing my initial load development seating back about .010" from the lands.
Shoot. One of the powders will shoot better than the others.
Now, take the best performer and vary the powder charge and bullet seating depth, changing only one, or the other, at a time. Bullet seating depth can have a big effect on accuracy, within the same powder and charge.
Neck sizing, with a good bushing die or Lee Collet die, will keep your neck concentricity consistent (run out with conventional dies can be a big problem).
I've read and read lots of material on reloading for accuracy, but, the absolute best on consistent accuracy and ekeing everything out of your factory rifle is Sinclair's Precision Reloading and Shooting book. Its kind of what I go by.
Once I get a set of loads tweeked, I'll then turn the necks. Haven't done that yet. I have all the tools with the exception of a ball mic.

[acemisser]

I have to say that I am at a lose here..I need to ask..When you say you go up .1 are you say 1 complete grain or are you saying ,1 as a tenth of a grain...

Please clear this up as I am sure others are corn fused as well......Thanks...John

[WuzYoungOnceToo]

I have to say that I am at a lose here..I need to ask..When you say you go up .1 are you say 1 complete grain or are you saying ,1 as a tenth of a grain...

Please clear this up as I am sure others are corn fused as well......Thanks...John

.1 gr = 1/10 gr. As already pointed out, 1 whole grain is far too large a jump from one charge to the next, even for the first pass.

[handsomerob]

Thanks for everyone's input. I will load up some tomorrow and try out the range this weekend. I guess I didn't realize 1 grain jump would be too much. I'm going to do some more reading up on distance from the lands too.

[fgw_in_fla]

Personally, I think .1gr (1 tenth) is too tight. You'll end up with an awful lot of ammo that shoots in the same or similar node of accuracy. Unless you're splitting hairs, I really don't think you'll see that much difference in accuracy going in .1gr increments. I've tried .3gr, .2gr, and .1gr. Using .3gr will get you into the groove using less powder, bullets, brass.
The advantage or "good thing" about using tighter increments (ie - .1gr or even .2gr) is you get to shoot more, spend more time at the range, make more ammo, etc......

Using a tighter increment is occasionally necessary if you have a bullet that your rifle hates. I used Hornady 150gr Interbond bullets in my .270 a while back. If the charge was + or - .1gr it would open the group up about an inch. I had over two hundred of those bullets and couldn't wait to finish them. My rifle absolutely hated them.....but not more than I did. Nosler's all the way for me.

Frank in Fla

[Luckus]

What fgw_in_fla says.

[BigBlue]

Frank in Fla has a good point. 3/10gr. increments is good for load development. Once you find a load that works well for you, you can always fine tune it in 1/10gr. increments. As for COL, starting at .005" off the lands works well, if your magazine doesn't limit the length further. Again you can fine tune it after you find a decent load. I pick one bullet in a weight that will work for it's intended use. Sometimes after trying various loads with that bullet, you'll find your rifle just doesn't like that bullet or weight and you'll have to try another. I look at several load data books and try to determine the best 3 powders for my purpose. I go to the starting load for each and work up in 3/10gr. increments, loading 3 rounds of each powder weight. It can be a costly process, but no more costly than buying box after box of ammo trying to find one that your gun likes.
Don

[Trent]

You can't use a universal amount of steps. One cartridge is good for .5gr steps and another is good for .1gr steps. Different size case dictates different steps. Use 1% increases in charges.

Starting load of 40gr = .4gr steps up to max.
Starting load of 20gr = .2gr steps
So on, and so on...

That is how I figure it out anyway.

[thomae]

You can't use a universal amount of steps. One cartridge is good for .5gr steps and another is good for .1gr steps. Different size case dictates different steps. Use 10% increases in charges.

Starting load of 40gr = .4gr steps up to max.
Starting load of 20gr = .2gr steps
So on, and so on...

That is how I figure it out anyway.

Being a stickler for both attention to detail as well as "math in real life," I would like to gently suggest that .4 grains is one percent (not 10 %) of 40 grains. The same is true for .2 grains relative to 20 grains. (10%, on the other hand, is about the difference between many published minimum and maximum loads.)

I do not mean to take away from the main point of Trent's post (with which I agree wholeheartedly): the exact variation between powder loads during load development depends on the amount of powder being used. It would be rather time consuming to try and develop a 50 caliber load by changing powder loads by 0.1 grain increments.

[82boy]

I understand the process of reloading but honestly I think I could use some knowledge in load development. How should one work up a load? Start with your powder and work your way up to find the best grain, then move to distance from lands? How do you know when your touching the lands and what your max OAL is. ... Also full length resize or neck sizing? ... i guess I'm asking when you get a new caliber/barrel and you start reloading what are the steps you go through before deciding on your guns favorite load or a load you might use in a competition.

Well I will try to address your questions, to start on powder, I try to pick a powder that matchs the case, and bullet weight. This seams to be the biggest mistake people make by trying something diferent just because it is shown in a load book. I try to pick a powder that will fill majority of the case, but not be so slow that it would be a compressed load. Most load books have a cartridge fill ratio listed. I also find out what is popular, if majority of people are using that powder, then there must be a reason why, there is no reason to re-invent the wheel. I like the Sierra load book, on every bullet and load data, they shot a hunting load, and a accuracy load. I usualy pick a load at random, usualy somewher between the middle to the hot side of things. Starting out with a generic seating depth say .010 off the lands, I shoot 3 shot groups, going up and down with powder charge ( It is nice to have reloading equipement you can take to the range.) and I find the best shooting powder charge, and I go back to it, and then I tweek seating depth.

On seating depth, Like I said I find a measurement that is about .010 off, and I move in and out from there, (Usualy by .005 incraments.) agins shooting 3 shot groups untill I find where the gun shoots it best. I go back to that depth, and I fine tune it by .001 incraments, and see if I see a diference. Then you can go back to powder adjustemnts and fine tune them by a few .010's of a grain untilyou find what works best still shooting 3 shot groups. Now remember when you find that majic powder charge it is only for that condition, meaning with humity, and temprature change the powder chanrge will change. But once you find seating depth, the gun will preform at that seating depth, for a long time, it will eventualy eroude the chamber and you wil have to tweek the seating depth sometime down the road. I have also found that once you have found the proper seating depth, you can measure this from the ogive, and when you switch bullets you can set then up on the same ogive length, and be close to proper seating depth with them.

On finding seating depth, I have a sinclair tool, and every time I have ever used it I find that it has lied to me. To find seating depth, and measurting it, you will need a compairator. I usualy take an old case size it, and just barrely stick a bullet in it, (NO PRIMER OR POWDER) and place it into the rifle, and close the bolt. Most times the bullet will not stick in the lands, and it will eject, if it does stick in the lands back the bullet into the case a bit more. What your looking for is maks on the bullet, and the shape of them marks. I use a piece of 0000 steel wool, and I clean the marks off. I repeate this process many times reading and measuring. When I find that the marks are square (Same height and width) I call this "Hard jamb," and mesure it. I then back the bullet and get to where I just see marks on the bullet (They will be retangular meaning they are wider than they are longer.) I call this light jamb, and I measure it. I then back the bullet off untill there is no marks at all on the bullet, this is close to touching. I back off my bullet .010 from the measurment of light jamb, and this should be longer than the close to touching measurement, you should not see any marks, if you do, repeate your process. Never measure a bullet seating depth, by overall length, only with a compairator, measuring the bullet from the ogive.

When it come to sizing a case this is a heated debate, and people have their own therories. I have found that full length sizing is the best method, with a properly set die. (Large majority of benchrest shooters use this as well.) To measure this you will need a case gauge. Most good dies will come with a case gauge, or when a good gunsmith chambers a barrel for you he will give you one based off of the reamer used. LE wilson also makes them. What your looking for is you want the die to bump the shoulder back on the brass .001 to .002. (Basicly you measure the fired case , and then size it, and measure again, playing with adjustement of the die, untill you get things right.) Use of die shims help with setting this up.

Last off, all of this will prove to be pointless, unless you have a good rest, and shoot over windflags. Shooting a gun off of a rolled up sleaping bag off the hood of the car is not a solid rest. The gun needs to be set up on a slolid rest whether that is off of seandbags, an bipod, or a mechanical rest, it has to be rock solid, or you wasting your time. You will never get any conclusive data, without the rifle being solidly suported. Wind flags dont have to be expensive, a few dowel rods drove into the groud, with a pice of survayors tape tied to them will do. place the flags out at diferent distances. I usualy place 1 flag 10 yards away from my gun, then I place 1 flag 30 yards away , then another flag I place at 60 yards, and I then place the last flag at 80 yards away. Shooting with out wind flags anytime is totaly worthless, and load developement without them is a total wast of time. If you can not see the conditions change, you will never know if it affected the bulets travel. if you believe that the wind doens't change a bullets point of aim, then you are fooling your self.

[rjtfroggy]

I have to agree with Frank, the average shooter will not notice an accuracy change with .1gr. of powder.IMO .5 changes until you find the accuracy node then play with the .3 maybe .2 gr changes, when you get to this point start using five shot groups that will give you definite proof of your load.
I use the IMR 4895 with a 150gr. bullet at 42.5 grns out of a 20" factory barrel and am well under MOA @100 & 200 yards always.
Good luck.

[skypilot]

The reference in my post to .1 gr 1/10 gr was for small case such as .223 as mentioned in my post. A increment of .2 or greater increment is of course obvious for larger case capacities. On a .223 for instance a .1 increment will show a range of about .3 or .4 gr spead to choose from. For instance the target @400yds shows for a .223 69 SMK and Varget a good horizontal string(no vertical) with 25.7, 25.8, 25.9 and the max 26.0 gr. I take the 25.8(closet to max load, thus highest velocity without compressing the powder or getting too close to MAX) and may play with the seating depth to get a <MOA load for 400 yds and beyond.

[fgw_in_fla]

OK..... Let's make it simple for the guy before we confuse him & he sells his reloading stuff & takes up chess or something....

Just fiil the case with powder & hammer the bullet in the top. Don't forget to press in a primer first.

There.... How's that? Simple, concise & to the point.

HandsomeRob --- You do realize I'm just yanking your chain, don't you?

Frank in Fla

[fgw_in_fla]

AND.... on a side note, I think 82boy put up some great information. He's covered most anything that's noteworthy.

Nicely done.

Even I can understand it.

Frank in Fla

[John_M]

rob, Lots of good advice above. I use variations on some of the above when working up loads for maximum accuracy in my .223 Rem. Here are three excellent tools which will help you accurately measure the amount of "jump" from the bullets' ogives to the lands in the barrel:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/570...ge-bolt-action
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/231...with-6-inserts
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/459...308-winchester

Detailed instructions are included with each tool.

These are the Hornady version of the tools. Other versions from different manufacturers are probably equally as good. Other retail houses might have prices and availability equal to that of Midway.

Good luck and have fun.

[rjtfroggy]

If I read the original post correctly he is asking about a 308win. and that is what I based my response on.
I did not want to confuse him with other calibers or a bench full of tools that you can get away with not having until you get more proficent at the reloading bench.

[DougMH]

I love these discussions, but they're so futile in so many ways. There must be literally thousands of variables from say a starting point of buying hand loading materials to putting a round consistently through a target at distance. Rather than be specific about methodology, I would just add some things that might make for consistency.

1) Use a reliable chronograph as part of your testing. Without a reliable chronograph, your groups can be meaningless. If a particular group of shots has a large ES and SD, you're wasting your time until you're building better ammo. If you can consistently get to an ES of 20 on maybe 10 shots, then you're ready to move on to other stuff. Granted getting to an ES of 20 can involves bullet COL, et al.
2) Take the rifle out of human hands when testing. Something like a Caldwell Lead Sled or similar, preferably on a solid bench. True, you may not shoot from a bench, but you need to test from one. You're testing rifle and ammunition, not yourself at this point.
3) Take the environment out of it as much as possible. Shoot on a cloudless or evenly overcast day with flags hanging limp.
4) Shoot enough ammunition to make the test meaningful. For example, going up and down a ladder one time at 700 yds with different powder loads is probably not going to tell you much. Similarly shooting a rotation test of 3-shot groups with different loads is probably not going to tell you much.
5) Admit it when you just get lucky. I bought, by mistake, some Lapua .308 "Palma" brass. This brass uses the small rifle primer. I left it on the shelf for quite sometime, but when my rifle (see signature) didn't seem to be shooting well, I decided to try it. I prepped it exactly as I've done my regular .308 brass except I used CCI #400 primers. In my first test, I put 155.5 and 185 Berger BTHP (non-VLD) rounds right on the lands for COL. I ended up shooting dime-sized groups with both weights at 300 yds. Last Friday, my son shot a 194-5X at the NRA Mid-Atlantic Regional Matches at 1,000yds with the same lot of ammo. My only guess is that with the small primer, the Varget was burning more consistently.

It's certainly true that when you shoot at that deer or in a match, the human and environmental elements will come into play. But you should have confidence that if you don't shoot well, it was because of those factors alone, not the rifle and ammo.

My 2 cents

[Trent]

Being a stickler for both attention to detail as well as "math in real life," I would like to gently suggest that .4 grains is one percent (not 10 %) of 40 grains. The same is true for .2 grains relative to 20 grains. (10%, on the other hand, is about the difference between many published minimum and maximum loads.)

I do not mean to take away from the main point of Trent's post (with which I agree wholeheartedly): the exact variation between powder loads during load development depends on the amount of powder being used. It wood be rather time consuming to try and develop a 50 caliber load by changing powder loads by 0.1 grain increments.

DOH!! You are right. Edited my original post to fix my typo!

[handsomerob]

There is lots of good information here. You've all given me plenty to work with. Hopefully I will have time tonight to load some rounds. I will start at .01 of of the lands and work through the powder at i think .3 grns. I'll try to make it to the range this weekend.

[handsomerob]

Okay, I finally got some free time today and loaded about 7 different weights of IMR 4895. I have two sets of 3 shot groups. There will be more but that's all the cases I had the were close in weight. I found my distance from the base to the lands and also the my OAL with Sierra Matchkings 168gr. I went with these because the Federal gold medal match are the best factory ammo that my gun likes.

I noticed that some of the OAL's would move even though I didn't touch my bullet seater setting. I measured some of the bullets and they were fairly consistent but I can see that the difference in bullet lengths would through off my OAL. All that is fine by me because I realize the tip of the bullet isn't what touches the lands. I'm wondering if my base to ogive is off too? And whats the best way to measure that. I just set my caliber to .300 and locked it then made a mark around my bullet. I realize though that's not the most accurate way to measure it plus I don't want to mark all of my bullets that way.

I saw a couple people mention a bullet comparator. So I looked that up. It seems to be what I am looking for. You guys agree? Any recommendations of which maker to use? All I could find was a Hornady and Sinclair. Also thanks John_M for the links. I wasn't expecting the differences in OAL. I started reloading with a Lee Classic Loader and Nosler Ballistic Tips. Those OAL's were very consistent. I got a bench set-up from my mother-in-law for Christmas. I am learning how to use that set up accurately.

[fgw_in_fla]

I don't know if you can get every cartridge exactly the same COL. I believe you'll find slight variations in bullet OAL, slight variations in the diameter at the ogive. They're not 100% perfect.
Are you shooting competition?
ALthough I don't shoot sanctioned competition, I still try to be as exact (exact: see OCD) as possible. I find after going thru hours of trying to make ammo a near perfect as possible for what I have to use, I still see variations in COL by sometimes as much as .005" to .007".
And after all is said & done, they still print some incredibly tight groups. So long as I'm "on" that day.

If you're finding minor variations in your COL or OAL to ogive, I think you'll be OK.... Give them a try & see how they perform. If you're still in developement, I really don't think minor variation in COL will impact your OCW test. After you find out what actual charge you'll be getting best accuracy from, then you can be concerned about length. Maybe some better brass? Find out which cases give the most consistant OAL and reuse only those? I think there's a few ways to overcome the "irregular COL syndrome".
Some of our resident BR guys will no doubt have more info for you.

Frank in Fla

[fgw_in_fla]

Hey HansomeRob - Something else comes to mind here. I just re-read your original post & it seems like you're just starting your OCW test. I don't think a few thousandths on your COL is critical right now. I think you'd be better off finding that accuracy node or sweet spot first. Then we can all try real hard to totally confuse you with neck tension & exact COL & such.

I think if you focus on the preliminary stuff, you stand a better chance of learning as you progress, too. You're going to find things like neck tension can drive you batty. I didn't pay alot of attention to neck tension when I first started reloading. Once I was able to grasp the necessity of consistant neck tension, along with consistant OAL, charge weight, etc.... My grouping tightened up quite a bit. I believe I stopped crimping right about the same time, too...

Slow & steady. Be consistant & you'll do fine. Good luck -

Frank in Fla