Reply With QuoteSo, pictures:
100yards
I shot from a bench, bipod up front, my hand used for a rest in the back. So I'm not doing this from a lead sled, however, I am a constant, all but a couple check groups on torque value 45/50 were on the same day. I let the barrel cool between groups, I loosened action screws, then re-torqued to settings.
45/50 means 45 in/lbs on front (furthest towards muzzle), 50 in/lbs on rear (right in front of trigger).
Shooting federal gold medal 168's for torque testing, the 600 yard group was me testing 175's.
My gun is skim bedded, so why, at times, I saw an enormous difference in groups with as little as 5 in/lbs difference, IDK.
Gun is a Savage 10FCP in a choate tactical, stock package from Cabelas. GAP cut/recrowned and put a badger FTE on, she's now 18" long. I have a SSS comp trigger on it now @ 1 1/4lbs, it is fantastic.
I have a Sightron SIII 8-32x56 on top w/MOA reticle. I bought the Mil/Mil model from opticsplanet a couple months ago, had debris inside, they returned it, answered questions, paid for shipping back to them, I got a MOA reticle this time.
I have debris in this scope as well, I will now go back to Sightron for a solution, love the scope, love the clarity, accurate turrets, can't have debris bouncing around.
Aside: I use the "Live Talk" feature on OpticsPlanet for questions, problems, and whether they have a product in stock, when they expect it, and I even bug them on how reliable the delivery dates are.
Whether or not this gentleman can actually get those answers IDK, but I've bought several scopes from them with excellent customer service, when they give me delivery dates they are accurate, or I end up getting products sooner. They have been excellent, so I continue to use them.
So, pictures:
100yards
200 yards and further
These groups were at times appalling to me, ranging in torque from 40 front and 25 in the back to 40 front and 50 in the back.
They were shot at 200 yards
40 in the front and 20 in back, this shot a couple good groups, but 40/25 was bad...?
45/50 Seems to be the best, but 50/50 may get some more testing, 200 & 300 yards
600 yards, this is prone, accushot mono in the back, bipod up front, this is also testing the 175's. I don't know which 5 were the group, either way, one group was 1.018 other was 1.118. This groups I was aiming at the 3/4" white dot. The group before used the 3" round orange target and the group was damn near 3 times the size... aim small miss small right?
So, if you went through all that, I would like some insight into what you think of it, good, bad, or otherwise.
I've been disappointed, before I had my barrel cut down, groups over MOA sent me through the roof, and groups over 1 1/2 moa were labeled as drunken mistakes.
I honestly don't believe this thing is shooting as well as it was before, hence all this torque value testing, I actually tested 30/20 through 40/45 another day as well, I just re-used the target before getting pictures.
It is fun with the short barrel and brake though, as long as I'm hitting
What do "MAX" and "ATC" mean? I need Center to Center group size to understand.
joe b.
Is your receiver tang making contact with the stock or floating?
Have you ever evaluated the same torque setting on several different occasions to determine your "reproducability"? The amount of change you are seeing between different torque settings must be outside of the reproducability (better or worse); otherwise the torque changes are not the reason.
If I understand you correctly you said it shot better before you had the work done, right? First check the simple things that we always somehow forget and end up feeling stupid because of it. Scope rings and bases tight? Screws for bases switched front to rear and fronts have bottomed out and seem tight but not holding tight. Try a different scope since the new one hasn't proven its self yet, sometimes even new scopes can be bad. Next try some different loads. You have changed the harmonics if the barrel by shortening it and adding a weight to the end of it, just because it liked a load before don't mean it will like the same thing now. Is the muzzle break tight? Have you tried shooting without the break to see if that makes a difference? There are so many factors that may be causing this how have you narrowed it down to just the action screws?
From strictly a statistical perspective, on your first targets:
-there is a strong correlation between group size and front torque (lower is better)
-but there is also a correlation between your front and back torque settings ( that is when you increased the front torque you also increased the rear torque).
- so you need to run some combinations of low front torque with high rear torque (which you did not do) to determine for sure
On the second set of 100yd targets with settings of 45/45, the group size ranged from .47 to 1.09. What else was going on here (something you did not report or that I missed)? That is the reproducabiity aspect I mentioned earlier.
Max Spread CTC(center-to-center), average distance to center(ATC). IIRCOriginally Posted by joeb33050
Floated, but checking this again wouldn't be a bad idea.
Yes I have, not on all values, but there is an entire day of testing from 30/20 all the way to 45/45, this was another 150 round or so day, I don't know where this target(s) went, I think it ended up being reused.
45/50 seems to do consistently well, 45/45 was OK on what you see here, but previously was iffy. I want to experiment with 50/55, as 50/50 was good, see if there is a sweetspot there.
I really did this to see what differing torque values did, not as a definitive, no BS, accuracy test, as I'm not one to bolt my gun in a lead sled.
The 45/50 I think you're referring to on the second set is a different day, this day was to check other ammo, I had federals new trophy copper 150's and gold medal 175's.
The 4 shot .9ish group was first group of the day, the second group was the 5 shot .65ish. I then switched to the 150's, it took my barrel 11 rounds to settle down with this copper bullet, I then put 9 into about, maybe just under moa.
That over moa group you see with the 45/50 is my first group going back to the 168's, so the barrel may not have settled having come from shooting the all copper rounds.
I did the torque and shoot test awhile back on three Choate tacticals and all 3 worked best at 45 on the front and 40 on the rear,[2-260's and a .223 ]
You don't have a torque problem....you have a tune problem. By shortening the barrel and adding a brake you have move the node.
"As long as there's lead in the air....there's still hope.."
Bedding job was junk, I had it re-bedded
I got out to the range, wanted to test the 175's more.
So, new bedding job, I used a 9-13" harris ultralight up front, allowed me to use the mono in the back "correctly."
It was torqued to 60/60 and I'm not messing with it, at least until it settles in with the new bedding job.
These 100 yard groups were actually the last I shot, people showed up and I couldn't shoot at the further distances, it is also why the 300 yard group was cut to 3 shots.
200 yards
300 yards- I used the first shot to create a target, I couldn't make the light yellow dots out well enough to consider them a good target, the bullet hole worked well.
Here is a group I shot with the 168's at 200.
I have a case of these sitting here to work with, may go shoot some fclass with them tomorrow.
18" Length barrel???You don't have a torque problem....you have a tune problem. By shortening the barrel and adding a brake you have move the node.
I am personally surprised it shooting as well as it is!
[B][SIZE=3]Dennis[/SIZE][/B]
It's a Savage...
And I believe that quote to be at least partially correct, the 175's are shooting better than ever, the 168's seem to have lost a touch, but I'll be shooting more in about an hour. I'll also use the 168's in fclass today.
Yes, cut from 26" - 18" with a badger fte installed, work done by GAP, a buddy re-bedded it for me, he did it right as you can see.
As an aside; the 168's are flying about 2560 & the 175's about 2480, again, federal gold medal.
Why? There are guys shooting specialty pistols at 1000 yards and holding group sizes less than MOA.
It's better to shoot for the moon and hit the fencepost than to shoot for the fencepost and hit the ground!
These guys have to be super talented!There are guys shooting specialty pistols at 1000 yards and holding group sizes less than MOA.
[quote]You don't have a torque problem....you have a tune problem. By shortening the barrel and adding a brake you have move the node./quote]
I still have to agree with the above statement from sharpshooter! Harmonics and "node's" will change with barrel alterations! I added a break to two of my rifles. My proven loads went oiut the door when I did this, however, it was easy to tune it back in. I understand this might not be the case for some barrels, JMO Dennis
I also had a bad bedding job on one of my rifles. I let a known good smith redo the bedding. It cost, but the results are well worth the money.
Your groups look great!
[B][SIZE=3]Dennis[/SIZE][/B]
I shot some more with the 168's, shot a 10 shot group, 8 in a solid 1/2", one shot out of position opening it up and one pulled. Ended at probably 1.1"
Another 5 shot that was probably .75"
I'm still very much the limiting factor, I'll post the groups, the 10 shot makes that very evident, but for now I have a match to get ready for.
The 175's are the winners here, I'll order two more cases this week.
Barrel length is not a factor for accuracy,length changing harmonics are the only time length will change accuracy.
Too many variables,not enough data to actually come to any conclusion.
Good shooting tho
Gary
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