finally found big problem with my Savage MkIIBTV - it's the ammo

[Jeff56]

After swapping ammo several times along with 200 other things I've tried I finally figured out why sometimes I get terrible flyers with my MkIIBTV. It's the Wolf MT ammo I use most of the time. I can see it fly off line through my scope right before it gets to the target (at 50 yards). I've had other ammo shoot flyers which is why I haven't thought it was an ammo problem but when I saw the Wolf ammo take a curve when shooting with my CZ I realized that no other ammo has been that bad. I've shot some really good groups with that Wolf ammo and I've shot great targets with it. I've put 4 shots under .1" at 50 yards only to have one of the four end up an inch off. I've been shooting SV ammo a lot lately though and I have been getting pretty consistent results. Then I broke out some Wolf just because I haven't been shooting it as much and there was the old familiar curve at about 45 yards. It's very easy to see it take a sideways curve. I can't get the CCI SV to shoot as well as the Wolf does as long as the Wolf behaves but that flyer ruins my groups all too often.

So it's back to the drawing board to find the right ammo for me. Any suggestions would be great. I just know that Wolf isn't as good as it was when I first started shooting it and that irks me. I've wasted a lot of money thinking there was a problem with the rifle. It will likely be a while before I buy any more Wolf.

[GaCop]

My Marlin 925 ended up liking Mini-Mag solids and Blazer solids the best. I too was getting the flyer with Wolf and eliminated it for that reason. Worst shooting was Remington Subsonics and Winchester Super-X. Each rifle is an enigma so you will have to retest with various brands of ammunition to see what will shoot consistently in your rifle.

[Jeff56]

The Wolf has worked best in just about all of my rifles and still does actually. It's just that it gets a really bad flyer every once in a while. It seems to be just bad enough to really mess up an ARA target for me. I've only ever made it through one ARA target without getting a flyer. I shot a 2200 with my Savage and the Wolf ammo. But again, now it consistently has one or two bad rounds out of 10 shots. That's a lot really. But the other rounds will shoot exceptionally well. I know I need to find the right ammo for my rifles but I've already been through a lot of ammo for them and what's worse, I did it a good while back so I don't remember what all I've tried. I guess it's back to square one now.

Not quite sure why this was more of a rifle issue instead of an ammo issue and why the board moved it to this forum. Oh well. I guess it doesn't matter. It will probably get noticed more in the rimfire section.

[dksac2]

The one thing I have found with the Wolf MT is there is always at least a few with rim thickness way off from the rest.
I have measured rim thicknes from .036" to .0415" with the majority of rounds being .038" to .0385".

I know many people feel measuring rim thickness is a waste of time, and I agree with that with the majority of quality ammo. I have no idea why Wolf has such a wide varience in their rim thickness, even CCI SV all measures within 1/2 thou of the standard rim size, but wolf always has 3 to 6 rounds per box way out of the norm.
I have found that by culling those rounds, my fliers have been reduced by a wide margin. I save the out of spec rounds for seasoning a barrel after cleaning. I do one brick at a time and have found that I can fill most boxes with all the same rim size and not have too many different boxes of ammo. I have not really got into which rifle likes which rim size the best, I'm just looking for consistancy, which is the key to everything in rimfire shooting.

The one other thing that I have seen get rid of a first shot flier is simply a good chamber cleaning, you don't have to clean the whole barrel is you wish not to, but keeping the chamber clean will many times eliminate tht first shot flier.

I also find it interesting that you can see the bullet curve. I'm not able to see the flight of my bullets shooting outside, so I assume you are shooting an indoor range which has lighting that allows you to see slower bullets in flight.
The indoor ranges of course have equipment to remove fumes, blowers and suction, I have been told that if a blower is not on all of the time, but cycles, as the bullet goes by the blower, it can change the flight of the round, no proof on this, just something to think about.

Try segrigating your Wolf ammo as to rim size and see if it helps those fliers. I still get them, but far fewer in number. I suppose if one wanted to get totally anal, the rounds could be weighed also, something I have not done. Were I in a big match shoot, I would most likely do that also.

Try the rim thickness measurement and let me know if it helps with fewer fliers for you. I also always shoot a spotter for my first shot, then shoot the rest of the group, seems to help warm up the barrel just enough to help the following bullets shoot more consistant groups. This seems to help a lot in the Savage RF rifles, it may in others also.

My Best, John K

[benson00]

I have a mkii fv that loves fed 510 blue and 510b red just a thought, can shoot 1/2" paint balls at 50yds all day.

[Jeff56]

I also find it interesting that you can see the bullet curve. I'm not able to see the flight of my bullets shooting outside, so I assume you are shooting an indoor range which has lighting that allows you to see slower bullets in flight.

Actually I'm shooting outdoors. I've always been able to pick up the flight of a bullet if the light conditions are right. And when bullet is not traveling straight away from me it is much easier to see it. I can see the glint of the sun on the bullet once it turns away from straight which makes it much easier to see.

When I was younger I could see pretty much every .22 round I fired. It's gotten harder as I've gotten older but I still see a lot of them. Certain conditions make it easier but even on bad days I see a lot of the bullets flying. I used to have really good eyesight but not so much anymore. But I think most people can see bullets flying if they learn what to look for. Start with bright sunlight or a drizzle. I know that's the opposite ends of the spectrum but those are the times I can see bullets better. One is because the sun shines brightly on the bullet and the other is beause the bullet stands out against the background more. I guess I was probably taught how to see bullets at a very young age. I've done it so long I don't really think about it. But I do know I see lots of other people that can do it.

[Specter65]

I recently bought a new brick of SK Std+ and it seems to have the same issues. My MkII shot previous boxes of SK really well, under 1" at 100 yards, but the new box shoots about 2" at 50 yards. I've read of others having issues with recent lots of this ammo so the ammo can always be an issue.

[Billcurtis]

Jeff I shoot a Savage MKIIBV and notice that my rifle is sort of picky about the ammo also. So far I have shot some wolf, Ely, Rimington, Winchester and a few others, So far my rifle responds to CCI Mini Mags 40 grain and the best so far is CCI Standard velosity 40 grain. That stuff today shot less then one 1" group several times.
I also plan on glass bedding my rifle, and I am going to install a recoil pad to lessen the slippery tendency while shooting from bipod. I shot the best groups using sand bags.
Anyway it is sure fun to try and inprove an already good rifle.
Bill...

After swapping ammo several times along with 200 other things I've tried I finally figured out why sometimes I get terrible flyers with my MkIIBTV. It's the Wolf MT ammo I use most of the time. I can see it fly off line through my scope right before it gets to the target (at 50 yards). I've had other ammo shoot flyers which is why I haven't thought it was an ammo problem but when I saw the Wolf ammo take a curve when shooting with my CZ I realized that no other ammo has been that bad. I've shot some really good groups with that Wolf ammo and I've shot great targets with it. I've put 4 shots under .1" at 50 yards only to have one of the four end up an inch off. I've been shooting SV ammo a lot lately though and I have been getting pretty consistent results. Then I broke out some Wolf just because I haven't been shooting it as much and there was the old familiar curve at about 45 yards. It's very easy to see it take a sideways curve. I can't get the CCI SV to shoot as well as the Wolf does as long as the Wolf behaves but that flyer ruins my groups all too often.

So it's back to the drawing board to find the right ammo for me. Any suggestions would be great. I just know that Wolf isn't as good as it was when I first started shooting it and that irks me. I've wasted a lot of money thinking there was a problem with the rifle. It will likely be a while before I buy any more Wolf.

[Tempest]

Ditto on CCI.

[oldguy]

One ammo that has been consistent in all my 22's is Aguila Match, I've found Wolf close but as poster said flier in some lots.

[Pete K.]

Have a decent caliper gauge. Find a fired .223 case. Insert your unfired .22LR into the .223 case. Measure the overall length. Drop out the .22LR round and insert another. Mark a piece of paper with the results of your first several measurements so you can place the rounds into those groups. Keep the closest length ones for more serious target shooting.

Pete K.

[thomae]

Have a decent caliper gauge. Find a fired .223 case. Insert your unfired .22LR into the .223 case. Measure the overall length. Drop out the .22LR round and insert another. Mark a piece of paper with the results of your first several measurements so you can place the rounds into those groups. Keep the closest length ones for more serious target shooting.

Pete K.

That's very similar to the following:
(Original thread url is: http://www.savageshooters.com/showthread.php?3708-Homemade-rim-thickness-gauge&highlight=rim+thickness+gauge).
I quoted Top Predator's entry and edited the quote correcting some spelling errors and updating the links so that the photos would show up with the new bulletin board software.

The reasoning behind sorting rimfire ammunition by rim thickness sounded very valid to me. The concept is that headspacing varies when the thickness varies, and since rimfire ammo headspaces on the rim of the cartridge, if you can take out the variances by measuring and lotting "like" thicknesses, you will improve accuracy. Just as in reloading, differing overall lengths and seating depths produce differing results, hampering steady consistency.

Enter the rim thickness gauge.

As always looking for a way to economically improve performance, I finally decided to purchase a rim thickness gauge. I did a search on the net to find manufactures when I cam across a forum thread on making your own rim thickness gauge. After reading it, I immediately went to my reload bench to get started, and after just a few minutes, put together my own thickness gauge.

Items needed: calipers, and one spent or new .243 case. In the original thread, the gentleman used a .223 case, which seemed a natural choice, but I found that it scraped off the valuable lubrication on rimfire ammo. So I went with .243. I also had some 3M non skid stick on material around so I thought I'd use it also.



I took the casing and put it on the trimmer to give it a nice flat and even lip. Ironically I used the same calipers used for the rim thickness gauge to so several measurements while turning the casing to ensure it is as flat and even as I can get it. I then took a neck brush to clean the inside of the neck of any residue. I shined the brass up a bit with never dull (for looks) and wrapped the non skid around the casing for grip and to designate it as a casing I want to keep for a special purpose.

I then simply put the casing in the calipers, closed the jaws and zeroed out the calipers.



To measure rim thickness on rimfire ammo, just slip the rimfire round into the opening of the case. The mouth of the .243 case bumps up against the rim and is not too wide as to allow the rimfire case from falling in the .243 case.



Now just put the calipers back on the .243 case with the rimfire case in it and take a measurement. The reading is the rim thickness.

My first 3 measurements....





Now to weigh a few more and see if the concept is real, which means another one of my long winded ammo tests. Will be updating with results soon.

I guess it all goes to show that great minds think alike!