25-06 head space problems?

[jeffman3]

I am measuring .008 case stretch before, vs. after, firing. (full length sized brass) I am also showing flattened, and cratered, primers with mild, in the book, loads. (just over bottom of the book) Bullets seated .020 off lands.

All brass is clean and dry , chamber is dry. (No lube, solvent, or oil) I am thinking .008 is a bit excessive, and probably what is causing my flattened primers. First thought is to get some new brass, fire form, and neck size only after that. My other thought, is to have the barrel reset, but I also have a short throat. (90 grain sierra HPBT loaded to book length show moderate land marks on bare bullets.) I can feel contact before closing the bolt down.

When loaded against the lands, primers don't show nearly as much flattening.

I wanted to know what your thoughts are on my problem, and possible solutions.

[jonbearman]

What makes you think the headspacewas right to begin with? Is this a factory or aftermarket barrel and put on by whom? Are you completely sure that after sizing there is absolutely no lube left over on the cartridge. Did you induce a headspace problem by oversizing? Keeping in mind,I dont know your level of expertise. You should take one fired case and back off the full length sizer about a turn or so and size it and try it in your chamber to see if the bolt closes easy. Then when you get one to fit and close easy take another fired case and put it in the shellplate and bring the ram up till it just touches the case and back off the die to see how close the two are,you can measure with feeler gages from the top of the shell plate to the bottom of the die,check it with the first one and record the reading then when backing off with a fired case you measure where the ram comes into contact with the fired case and the ram is cammed over without sizing that case.This way you will see how much ram travel there is to actually size a case enough to fit your gun.You would be surprised at how many people read the die instructions that tell you to turn it down till it touches the top of the shellholder and lock the nut on the die.Sometimes it works ok and sometimes it is way the heck off. Tell us what equipment and bullets and powder,brass and primers you use.

[jeffman3]

I have been reloading for the better part of two decades. For my hunting rifles, handguns, and competition rifles as well.

My other 25-06 does not show any of the problems this rifle demonstrates, using the same FL sizing die. (Savage 110, used barrel my gun smith took of another customers rifle, then seated on my rifle. He has since sold the gunsmith business, and concentrates on custom machine work now.)

My problem rifle, is a factory rifle. (Stevens 200) I am am loading with Lee Dies (I Prefer them over several others I have tried.)
I even went so far as to get a new set of dies. Same issues. I load on a Redding press, I have used Sierra 90 HPBT Sierra 117 SPBT and Nosler 100 grain BT, H4895, H4831, and RE-22, all with, Rem brass, WLR primers.

The tests I have preformed have all been very consistent. I have tried three different powders, and three diff bullets, all with the exact same results. Seated up against the lands I don't show flattened primers. Seated .020 off I show very flat primers. The .008 case stretch is being measured at the top of the shoulder. (I used the .30 cal hole on my Sinclair bullet comparator.) The .308 diameter fits down just over the top of the shoulder, so It should be a reasonably good indicator, and the results I have seen have been very consistent. I suppose I could spend some dollars, and buy a head space gauge that measures about half way down the shoulder, but the tests I have been doing, with the tools I have described, measure the same thing, (at a diff point on the shoulder) to the best of my knowledge.

I guess My real question is should I have this barrel reset, or just fire-form and neck size? Is the .008 enough to be considered truly excessive?

[jo191145]

I would'nt consider .008" excessive on virgin brass. Not great but not dangerous for one initial firing.
If I'm reading you right your FL sizing and getting .008" stretch with each firing.
That is definately excessive.

Assuming your not set up to reset the barrel yourself
why not just buy another Lee FL die for your new gun?

edit
Whoops just noticed you bought a new set of dies.
In that case Jonbearman is correct. Don't/never blindly follow the stupid directions.
Set your new die to the actual headspace of the rifle.

[Blue Avenger]

Is the writing on the barrel straight? Maybe he lined it up as close enough to set right. Most of my barrels are on a bit tighter then when new. The writing is always added after the barrel is installed at the factory.

[jeffman3]

thank you all for the help and advice.

This rifle may get a new barrel in the future. :'( :) Double edge sword, I love the 25-06 but a 6.5 has peaked my interest. If I have the head-space re-set, I might as well replace the barrel while we are doing it. (remember.... This barrel has a short throat now, setting the head space back will make it a very very short throat.) Two rifles, same cartridge, different loads, different case prep and sizing...... These are my families hunting rifles, and they are used by the entire family. The possibility of mixing up the gun specific ammo, of the same cartridge, goes up exponentially with each person that shoots them. If it was just me, no problem, but with three, some-times four or more, people using the same two rifles on a hunt, the possibility of mixing up ammo seems likely. That was the reason for FL sizing the hunting ammo to begin with.


I appreciate all the help, Thank you :) :)

[thirty06]

First thing check your headspace with a piece of brass that has been full length sized in your dies. Then a peice of scotch tape to the brass to see if theres any resistance on the bolt closing. If there is no resistance you need to find a set of headspace guages. Sounds like the headspace on this rifle is set loose. With a set of guages and a few tools the headspace can be reset very easily in just a matter of minutes and will have no effect on your throat or chamber. This sounds like a simple fix to me.

[gotcha]

jeffman, It appears you have different H/S on each rifle. I'm a little leery about using the sinclair tool to chk hd sp. If you have a set of 1/4" or 3/8" drive sockets handy you may find one that will slip over the neck & rest closer to the center of the shoulder while not touching the neck. It will make a good HS gauge. Try this: Measure the fired case w/ socket over neck. Then F/L size a 2nd case. Note difference in measurements. Example: Fired case measures .008" longer than sized case. Next, back die out, insert a .006" feeler gauge between S/H & die. Tighten die down firmly by hand. Resize a third case w/ this die setting. This will yield a case shoulder to base meas .002" shorter than fired case. Get a set screw type locking ring for this die & set aside for sizing w/ this rifle only. Or buy a HD SP gauge & comparator set up & reset HD SP. Just my .02 cents

[stangfish]

jeffman, It appears you have different H/S on each rifle. I'm a little leery about using the sinclair tool to chk hd sp. If you have a set of 1/4" or 3/8" drive sockets handy you may find one that will slip over the neck & rest closer to the center of the shoulder while not touching the neck. It will make a good HS gauge. Try this: Measure the fired case w/ socket over neck. Then F/L size a 2nd case. Note difference in measurements. Example: Fired case measures .008" longer than sized case. Next, back die out, insert a .006" feeler gauge between S/H & die. Tighten die down firmly by hand. Resize a third case w/ this die setting. This will yield a case shoulder to base meas .002" shorter than fired case. Get a set screw type locking ring for this die & set aside for sizing w/ this rifle only. Or buy a HD SP gauge & comparator set up & reset HD SP. Just my .02 cents

What he said.........

[jo191145]

thank you all for the help and advice.

This rifle may get a new barrel in the future. :'( :) Double edge sword, I love the 25-06 but a 6.5 has peaked my interest. If I have the head-space re-set, I might as well replace the barrel while we are doing it. (remember.... This barrel has a short throat now, setting the head space back will make it a very very short throat.) Two rifles, same cartridge, different loads, different case prep and sizing...... These are my families hunting rifles, and they are used by the entire family. The possibility of mixing up the gun specific ammo, of the same cartridge, goes up exponentially with each person that shoots them. If it was just me, no problem, but with three, some-times four or more, people using the same two rifles on a hunt, the possibility of mixing up ammo seems likely. That was the reason for FL sizing the hunting ammo to begin with.


I appreciate all the help, Thank you :) :)

jeffman
I see your dilemma. No two rifles are exactly the same. EVER.
With the parameters you've given (one load two rifles) its easy to suggest resetting the headspace. .008"-.010 headspace adjustment gives you the same in the throat. Not a big deal by any means.
Still you'd have two different rifles with two different throats just one FL die.
Could find a decent load for the new rifle and hope the old one likes it enough with the larger jump. It does happen occassionally.
Still, no two rifles are exactly the same.
Lots of fixes, some cheap some not so cheap. Still no two rifles are exactly the same. No quarentees
If nothing else you need to buy a barrel wrench and make a barrel vise (free)
At least you could install the new barrel yourself. At most you could reset the headspace on the new barrel and get lucky enough to find a load both like.

Then again if Midway still sells their do it yourself firelapping kit you can blow out the throat of that new barrel to match your old in short order. Still no quarentees it will like the same fodder.

[stangfish]

q or g ;D

[skoger]

Jeffman, I had a buddy who got the same gun as you, same problem, I put the barrel in a vise, had a headspace gauge, and dropped in the barrel, moved a 1/4 turn to stop, snugged up the barrel nut and done. Problems went a wayand his 25/06 is a tackdriver.

[Aircraftmech76]

I would reset the headspace to your dies, using a piece of brass from them to set it. If you have the capability to anneal, by all means do it. It will make for consistent headspaced ammo. For measuring sizing setback on the shoulders, just slip a 9mm case over the neck; it makes for a cheap and inexpensive measuring tool if you don't feel like buying the Hornady Head-n-Shoulders setup like I have.

Kevin

[barrel-nut]

Jeffman, someone may have mentioned this already, but I think the reason your primers look good when the bullets are into the lands is that this forces the case head to stay in contact with the bolt face. This does not allow the primers to become unseated and slam into the bolt face, as is probably happening when you load the bullets off the lands. In that case, the longish headspace in your chamber is allowing the ejector to push the case head forward off the bolt face, allowing the primers to back out on firing, and then get reseated as the case stretches to fill the chamber. Hence flattened primers. Hope that makes sense.

To fix this and maintain some interchangeability of your ammo, I would find a piece of fired brass that will just barely chamber (bolt closes snugly) in your other .25-06. Then use this piece of brass to reset the headspace in the one with the "long" chamber. Then both would have virtually the same headspace. You could then take that same piece of brass and use it to reset your F/L die, by initially backing off a little(one turn or so) on your die, then sizing the brass. Try it in your chamber; it should still be tight when you close the bolt. Turn your die in a small amount, maybe 1/16 of a turn, and resize again. Try to chamber it again; keep doing this until the bolt closure becomes easier, then stop and tighten your die. Take the piece of brass that now chambers easily, and put one layer of scotch tape on the head, trimming it closely, and try to chamber it again. It should be tight again. If this is the case, you're golden, and your headspace worries are behind you. If not, find another piece of tight brass and reset your die again.

This should give you two rifles with near-identical headspace, only differing in throat depth. You would use the same f/l die for both, and set your seating depths to the one with the shorter throat. Voila ! No more brass stretching issues, and complete ammo interchangeability. I have three .308's set up like this, and it makes reloading easier and shooting worry-free.

Good luck!

[stangfish]

There you go making sense again B-N.

[barrel-nut]

Sorry about that stang, guess I'll have to go "off the meds" and make things interesting again! (joking)

[jeffman3]

Thought processing........

Thank you B-N that makes sense. (You are saying slit the difference, for lack of a better way of saying it.) A touch tight on one, and see if it is close enough on the other.

I may try that !!!!!!!!!! :) before I move forward on my plan "B"

My Plan right now, (Plan "B") is to pop some money for a barrel vise, wrench, and head-space gauge. Try re-setting the problem barrel closer to my other rifle's head-space.

If that doesn't work, ( IE....I can't find a load to make both rifles work well) Plan "C" is to fit a new barrel on my problem rifle. If I am working with two diff. loads I might as well be working with two diff chamberings.


I will Post up results when I have the opportunity to work up some tests. Work has me "on the wall" so it may be a while before I get the opportunity to put some of this together.


I am a hard working factory guy. We feed our family, and clan, with our rifles. That translates to hard strapped for $$......That being said, I don't mind spending the dollars for quality, and Value. That is why we shoot Savage rifles!

[barrel-nut]

Jeff, actually what I was saying was to try to make both rifles' headspace identical. Essentially your stated "plan B". Then load your bullets short enough for the shorter throat, and then you have ammo interchangeability.

An even better idea, if you're considering picking up an action wrench and a barrel nut wrench, is to pick up a chamber "go" gauge as well and reset both rifles to minimum headspace, using a real gauge instead of a spent case. Then both would be the same, and brass stretch would be minimal.

The action wrench and nut wrench are a good investment if you plan to tinker with Savages, as is the headspace GO gauge. Be forewarned though, once you learn to swap barrels, Pandora's box has been opened, and there's no turning back....

[jeffman3]

back to the drawing board!!!! :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ ??? ??? ??? ???


After re-measuring my fired cases from testing, ( all properly labeled of course) with a proper tool, (.354 powder bushing from my shot re-loader, Roughly 1/2 way down the shoulder) my head space appears to be fine as compared to my other rifle. with in .002 difference between, fire formed cases from both rifles, and FL sized cases as well. :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[

Short throat for sure verified, but I'm starting over with tests to determine whats going on. Going back over load records and comparing to verified published sources, etc.... Very much not like me to make a mistake like that!!!!!! (read never happened before) , but I am dumb-founded at this point. Could be over crimped?????? I use a LEE Factory crimp die, and trim cases every loading, (don't take anything off most times, but all cases go over the LEE trimmer as part of my case prep.) Going to try no crimp on initial testing.

The only thing that makes sense to me right now is some type of lube/solvent remnants in the chamber, wrong load data, or over crimping. (None of these are likely, but I acknowledge them as a possibility, Something is going on!) Other ideas??????????

[Blue Avenger]

skip the crimp.