Timing and trueing process.

[ellobo]

From what I understand, Fred Moreo has designed tooling to recut the ramps for the bolt lugs to easier access the receive as part of the timing/trueing that he does. If memory serves there was a posting , by Fred I think, that he was negotiating with Savage for them to use that design in thier production. Since I havnt heard anything since I assume the negotiations came to naught. Fred, would yu care to comment on that?

El Lobo

[Blue Avenger]

Think they opted to not make the time and money investment to further tune there rifles and try to stay competitive on pricing

[ellobo]

Could be Gregg. But I believe the sticking point was Freds royalties or paying a goodly amount for his design. Once you have amortised the cost of the tooling your home free and I dont think with Savages volume of maufacture it wouldn't take long to amortise. I would think the tooling could be integrated right into thier machining process on thier CNC machinery. Unless we hear from Fred himself we will never know for sure. On the other hand I dont know what machines they do that with so I can't be specific on how they would do it. It sure would get rid of a lot of the hard bolt lift many seem to be experiencing, me included.

El Lobo

[cwop]

at the present time i dont see fred giving away his secrets and i dont see savage paying big bux. remingtons even get money spent on them t/t.

bob

[ellobo]

cwop, I dont see Fred giving away his secrets, that is why he was in negotiations. He obviously put a lot of time and expertice into the tooling he uses and he is not foolish enough to "give it away". I would classify Fred as a first rate tool and die maker as well as a top notch machinist. I have had the luck to have some of the best tool and die guys working on my projects so I am well aware of the great things a good tool and die maker can do.

El Lobo

[sharpshooter]

By now I've pretty much surmized that they are not interested, whether is was free information or not. Until the problem is actually affecting sales,and /or is creating enough splash that it is the main topic of discussion at their round table, they won't give it a second thought. Back in the late 90's, the biggest complaint that Savage could not deny was the crappy triggers. That made enough stir to develope the accutrigger, which put Savage ahead of the game.
I was in "negotiations" with the director of engineering at the time when he was a fresh hire and pretty green when it came to details about the specifics in rifles.
Over the last 4 years, periodically I have given them information on a silver platter, but they weren't sharp enough to take advantage of it.
If they haven't figured out something simple like how to improve the lingering problem of inconsistant ejection that plagues most frequenters of this site, it just means that the problem is not big enough,or they can't figure it out.

[cwop]

lets put it this way im sure fred had a price in mind im sure savage had an amount they were willing to pay which in my mind would be more like giving it away to freds way of thinking.

im sure fred is doing very well without savage and sure on the same token savage is doing well also. remington arms still has smiths making a good living tinkering with their rifles as well its just possible that the % of shooters willing to pay for premium service is too small to warrant this work on their rifles also.

bob

[ellobo]

Fred, thanks for the comeback. Having worked for Corporate America for over 50 yrs I pretty much know how they think and far too often marketing types overide engineering decisions out of fear of change. Boeing and at least one other co I worked for didnt think that way, they couldnt and stay in business. We the users of Savages products can only hope that sooner or later they smarten up and fix those niggling problems that have given Savage a bad name. They dont seem to understand that most buyers of Savage are the one timers who just want a decent hunting rifle. When thier rifle doesnt eject or the barrel goes inaccurate due to coppering up, they sell it and buy another brand. Then tell everyone what a piece of crap Savages are. They arnt into barrel swapping. Wanting calibers that no one made is why I got Savages and coming to this forum for information is where I learned about all the fixable problems. The avergae one rifle owner will never know all that or care.

El Lobo

[Stockrex]

Fred, thanks for the comeback. Having worked for Corporate America for over 50 yrs I pretty much know how they think and far too often marketing types overide engineering decisions out of fear of change. Boeing and at least one other co I worked for didnt think that way, they couldnt and stay in business. We the users of Savages products can only hope that sooner or later they smarten up and fix those niggling problems that have given Savage a bad name. They dont seem to understand that most buyers of Savage are the one timers who just want a decent hunting rifle. When thier rifle doesnt eject or the barrel goes inaccurate due to coppering up, they sell it and buy another brand. Then tell everyone what a piece of crap Savages are. They arnt into barrel swapping. Wanting calibers that no one made is why I got Savages and coming to this forum for information is where I learned about all the fixable problems. The avergae one rifle owner will never know all that or care.

El Lobo

It is a game of %s and penny pinching, every penny they spend to get the quality above the current cost of production, less in their pocket and less for the decision makers in bonus. Most product cycles/sales estimates are greared towards making the #s and their bonuses. It is shame that the corporate world is unwilling to make a product better for the sake of making it a better product.

[sharpshooter]

I don't think this is about the $$, it is about making a change that;
1. Was not one of their original ideas(making engineers look like fools)
2. Would put a hiccup in production from the change (keeping things separated,keeping track of new changes.) Remember when they changed over to the centerfeed magazines and never changed the SKU#?

With the addition of all the new CNC machining centers, 90% of all the issues could be fixed with a mouse click and a few keystrokes.

[cwop]

fred how many rifles are they running off on a run? since walmat uses a master distributor now probably doesnt matter like it used to. i recall rockerfeller was miffed about the cost of a lidding process for oil in his regime he asked a worker to come up with scheme using one less drop of sodier when sealing those cans.

the employee did it and saved jd milliions of dollars. i would reckon savage will do anything they can get by with to keep their manufacturing costs as low as they can.

bob

[jeazor]

What did they do to the Edge axis action that they say is a smooth action??? Ive never handled one to know if it is any better than the average savage...