Question for competition shooters

[barrel-nut]

What is your favorite replacement trigger for competition? I have a Model 12 vlp single shot with a CBI barrel, in a factory laminated stock, that I would like to replace the 2 1/4# Accu-trigger on. This will be for my son to use in VFS 100-200yd matches at our local club. I would like something that I could install myself, and adjust down to less than half a pound. Thanks in advance for input.

[tiny68]

I have had good luck with the SSS Competition triggers. Installed them all personally. No problems. Used for point-blank BR and F/Class. I personally use the same trigger for hunting applications, but it is not for everyone. Truthfully haven't tried anything else but factory triggers. My boys (9 and 13 yrs old) shoot this same trigger on their rifles. They both pulled the trigger a thousand times on snap caps to have a true feel for when the trigger would break before firing a live round. I personally don't like the feel of the AccuTrigger and have replaced them on all rifles I own. I shot a Basix trigger (sp?) at a match on a friends rifle that felt pretty good but 3 shoots is a very limited evaluation.

Luck, Tim

[82boy]

SSS Evolution trigger
It breaks at 2oz every time.

[tiny68]

SSS Evolution trigger
It breaks at 2oz every time.

But he can't install it himself and that eliminates the safety which he may want for his kiddo. I personally have an Evolution trigger on my target action 30BR. My only concerns is that is now a competition only trigger with no safety. If you want light, I don't know how to beat it.

Tim

[barrel-nut]

Thanks for the help guys. The Evolution sounds great at 2 oz., but as Tim said, I'm not real comfortable with the safety delete, as this rifle occasionally takes a trip to the deer blind too.
Tim, how low can you safely set the pull weight on the SSS competition model? This is the one I was leaning towards.

By the way, my young shooter is 13 also.

I wish Jewell would make one for the Savage. I have one on a Remington set at 2 oz., with a safety, and love it.

[82boy]

Tim, how low can you safely set the pull weight on the SSS competition model? This is the one I was leaning towards.

They will go to the advertised weight of 12 on a box stock gun, on a gun that has been timed and trued, they can go lower, mine breaks at 7 oz repeatly.

I wish Jewell would make one for the Savage. I have one on a Remington set at 2 oz., with a safety, and love it.

Jewel made a few prototypes, and was going to make a Savage trigger, but do the the design, (It was a very complicated design) cost, and the fact that savage just released the target accu-trigger (At that time.) they desided not to prouceed with production. The trigger could not be bought and installed by the consumer, due to stacking tolerances in the savage design, they was only availble through SSS, and must have been installed by them.

[barrel-nut]

Thanks 82, I think 12 oz. would be a huge improvement over the stock trigger. I will be doing this soon, hopefully.
Interesting info about the Jewell, too. Shame they couldn't make it work. They really are outstanding.

[Terry Balding]

I have several Rifle Basics triggers with 4oz. pull and a safety.

Terry

[barrel-nut]

Terry, is this the SAV2 trigger? Any issues with it going off unexpectedly, like on closing the bolt, etc? Been reading about this some.

Also, are yours installed on Accu- trigger models or pre- Accu-triggers?

Installation - "drop-in" or a lot of fitting, filing, etc ?

Thanks for the help!

[Grit #1]

I have the evolution trigger on my mod 12 in .223. I sent the action back for SSS to true, because I was concerned about the striker dropping while closing the bolt. Mine was set at 6oz, at my request, which is to me really light and it took some practice to control when the rifle fires. I have shot years of silhouette matches with a 2lb trigger and for years shot F-class with 2lb triggers. As long as there is no creep and it breaks consistantly a 2lb trigger is more than adequate for 95% of the shooters out there. A 3 screw savage trigger properly adjusted to 3lbs would be a better(inexpensive) bet for a kid.

[Terry Balding]

Terry, is this the SAV2 trigger? Any issues with it going off unexpectedly, like on closing the bolt, etc? Been reading about this some.

Also, are yours installed on Accu- trigger models or pre- Accu-triggers?

Installation - "drop-in" or a lot of fitting, filing, etc ?

Thanks for the help!

I am using the SAV2 trigger on both Accutrigger and pre-Accutrigger models. Firing on bolt closure would be a matter of improper sear engagement. If you set the sear per instructions it works well. While some may grease the sear for break-in, I wipe them clean for shooting. This reduces any chance for a close fire.

Terry

[ttfreestyle]

+ 1 on what Terry states. The firing of the sav2 when closing the bolt is improper sear engagement , I have three set at 5 oz with no problems and the safety works fine.

[barrel-nut]

Thanks for the info everyone, and Merry Christmas!
Grit, I understand that 2-1/4# is not bad at all for most purposes, and I agree. What I'm trying to do is get into competitive shooting with my son, since we both really enjoy shooting. I would rather do longer range shooting, such as F-class, but there is nothing here locally like that that I'm aware of due to lack of suitable ranges. So that leaves us with point-blank benchrest, which my local club has started becoming more involved in in the past few years. We have some really good guys at our club, and they have been really supportive of us in the couple of matches we have shot in. We have only done Varmint For Score style matches do far, and I would really like to try to make my model 12 vlp ss .308 w/CBI barrel as competitive as possible for either me or my son. The other guys are all shooting .30 BR's and 6 PPC's in custom, $3-4000+ benchrest guns, so I have my work cut out for me, and I realize my chances of winning anything with this setup is virtually nil, but it's what I have, and I would like to make it as competitive as possible (just not placing last in this crowd would be an accomplishment). We have some really good shooters at our club. When my son uses it, I would like for him to not be handicapped by equipment as much as possible. By the way, when my son used the Savage, I used a Remington 700 5R. They are about equal accuracy- wise now, but the 5r has a 2-oz. trigger. I think if the Savage had a comparable trigger, it would probably edge out the Remington. My kid is very responsible for his age, and has been shooting with me since age 5, so I'm not too worried about the safety aspect at the matches. When hunting he uses a standard Accu Trigger Model 10 7-08. But I would like to reserve the ability for myself to use the Model 12 for hunting from a box stand, so I want a trigger with a reliable safety. Sorry if I'm repeating myself, just trying to give y'all some background info that may or may not help?!??
I'm leaning toward the Sav-2, but still undecided ...

[Dennis]

I bought one Evolution trigger from SSS and now have four of them (one being currently installed in my BRX)!

FYI, safety is no issue for me, but I am sure it would be for many!

[barrel-nut]

+ 1 on what Terry states. The firing of the sav2 when closing the bolt is improper sear engagement , I have three set at 5 oz with no problems and the safety works fine.

I am using the SAV2 trigger on both Accutrigger and pre-Accutrigger models. Firing on bolt closure would be a matter of improper sear engagement. If you set the sear per instructions it works well. While some may grease the sear for break-in, I wipe them clean for shooting. This reduces any chance for a close fire.

Terry


Thanks Terry and tt, that makes me feel better about the SAV-2.

[savageboy]

My 1st one was a Basix 2 and am using a SSS EVO w/ Target Action now.

[82boy]

Well a few things to add, dont think your gun can not compeate with the high end customs. (With some work, and changes.) When it comes down to it what matters is barrels and bullets. To start I would HIGHLY recamend you get anouther barrel in a caliber that would alow you to be more competitive. I dont know how your club runs matches but most clubs that shoot a factory class require the gun to have a factory barrel, and other parts, including a factory trigger. (Some clubes will alow you to do work on the factory trigger, and bedding is anouther issue.) If the club will alow an aftermarket barrel I would recamend you get a barrel in a 6 BR, 223 rem, or 22/250 if it must be a factory chambered caliber, if anything is aloud I would get a a barrel in 6PPC. On the trigger I would Highly Recamend finding someone with the trigger your looking at, and try them out. I am not knocking the Sav 2 trigger but from what I have seen, and read they are a bit a of a PIA to get set up, (Even with the DVD.) and the ones I have seen, and shoot I did not like.

[barrel-nut]

Thanks for the encouragement 82. I'm not really sure which direction I will take with this- we may just continue to use it as-is for a time, and just focus more on load development. When I built this rifle, about a year ago, I had never shot in a match, and had no intention of competing with it. I guess it was just supposed to be a "long-range plinker". Now, I'm trying to decide if it's worth spending the money to try to transform this into something legal and competitive, or just try to pick up a used BR rifle. Either way, I'm really interested in the .30BR for VFS, as the .30 caliber bullet has a better chance of catching the next higher scoring ring than a 6mm due to its larger diameter. (I'm told this is why it's popular in VFS??). Do you know any good barrel makers who offer a small shank prechambered Savage barrel in .30BR? Or 6PPC?

For now the guys at our club are really good about "bending the rules" to allow us to compete with what we have. I think this would probably change if we started getting closer to the "money" (winning). But again, that's a long way off.

One thing I am starting to realize is that in the future it would be wise to more rigidly define exactly what I want from a rifle build, rather than just saying something like "I think I want a heavy-barreled .308" and then jumping in. The old saying about the all-purpose tool can do all jobs, but can do no job really well, sort of applies here.

[Grit #1]

You can buy a BR style stock from Richards Microfit for $178.00 in any laminate you like. I would stick with the Evolution trigger adjusted to 2oz. You will most likely have to send the action to SSS to have it trued. A really good trigger for a Savage is exspensive compared to a Remington. That is why you see the Remington/Savage hybreds, you get the best of both worlds. Your big disadvantage is going to be the .308win.. Recoil is going to eat your lunch, even in a 21lb rig. I would get a Savage Bench Rest Barrel chambered in 6BR. I've seen these factory barrels shoot in the 3s consistantly. You could put a really competetive rig together for about a grand. The BR will compete at F-class put to 600 with no problem, however, I still think that 2oz is to light for F-class. I using 6oz and thats light for me. I have to be able to control when the rifle goes off.

Best regards,
Grit

[82boy]

Either way, I'm really interested in the .30BR for VFS, as the .30 caliber bullet has a better chance of catching the next higher scoring ring than a 6mm due to its larger diameter. (I'm told this is why it's popular in VFS??). Do you know any good barrel makers who offer a small shank prechambered Savage barrel in .30BR? Or 6PPC?

Yes the 30BR is popular in VFS, but it has very little advantage over a 6mm. The 30BR is one labor intensive round, and not something I would recamend someone just getting started. The popular twist rate for a 30BR is 1 in 17 or 1 in 18, and most barrel makers do not offer such a thing. I would discourage anyone from devating from these two twist rates. Shilen offers a pre-chamberd barrel, and so does Sharp Shooters Supply. If you look at the IBS/NBRSA matchs, the 30BR is not dominating the sport. Many have gone and tried the 30BR just to go back to the 6PPC.

The 6PPC is one of the greatest rounds of all time! The only problem with it, is to use it in a savage you need either a special bolt head or a special extractor, only availble at Sharp Shooters Supply. In the last year Savage has started production on a 7.62x39 guns, and that is the same bolt head, but I dont know of anyone that has been able to get the bolt head from savage. The prefered twist rate for a 6PPC is 1 in 13.5 to 1 in 14. Again both Sharp Shooters Supply, and Shilen off pre fit barrels for a 6 PPC. (All I can say is SSS has ONE HECK of a HOT reamer, see many guns chambered with it just flat out kick but.) The other down side of the 6PPC is the brass is labor intensive, not so much as the 30BR, but it takes some work. You can also buy pre made brass but it is SUPER expensive.

It is for the reason mentioned above I would recamend the 6BR. Grated the 6BR is not setting the BR world on fire, but accuracy wise it is close to the preformance of the 6PPC, with less work or hassel.

[barrel-nut]

Thanks again, 82. Decisions, decisions....

6BR uses a .473 bolt head, right?

[82boy]

Thanks again, 82. Decisions, decisions....

6BR uses a .473 bolt head, right?

Yup, and it fires brass right out the box no work needed. 6PPC needs fireformed from 220 Russian brass, (Unless you buy 6PPC brass. wich most competitive shooters will not use.) and usualy neck turned, popular reamer is a jgs 1042 wich has a 262 neck. 30 Br needs sized up from 6mmbr, fireformed, and neck trimmed, There is a few diferent reamers out there claiming to be the Robbinette, and they are all different. Also 30 cal bullets are expensive and can be a challange to find.

[barrel-nut]

Ok, now all the 6 BR barrels I see available from the vendors on this site are 26"+. Is that much barrel length going to be a problem for a 100-200yd rifle? I would think that shorter would be better, right? 20"? I guess weight would become the limiting factor, to be within the rules. I wonder if Jim at NSS could/would cut one of his in-stock barrels down and recrown it for me? Or just stick with 26"?

Sorry for all the newbie questions. I appreciate the help.

[82boy]

Ok, now all the 6 BR barrels I see available from the vendors on this site are 26"+. Is that much barrel length going to be a problem for a 100-200yd rifle? I would think that shorter would be better, right? 20"? I guess weight would become the limiting factor, to be within the rules. I wonder if Jim at NSS could/would cut one of his in-stock barrels down and recrown it for me? Or just stick with 26"?
Sorry for all the newbie questions. I appreciate the help.

Nope not a problem at all, there are many reasons why benchrest shooters will tell you that they have 22 in long area barrels, and one of the biggest reasons is to make weight. On a light gun they are limited to 10.5 lbs. You also got to remember they use custom actions that are shouldered and they use a heavier barrel profile, and a straighter taper, again for different reasons. Some will tell you it goes back to the Houston Warehouse experiments. A few things to add is first Jim Briggs just sells barrels he doesn't do work on them, but he can order you anything you would like in the way of length. You also have to remember that if you go the 6BR route you are not doing the same thing as everyone else is. There is a difference between the 6PPC, and 6mmBR. On the other side of things I don’t understand why the venders offer the long barrels, my long range 6BR is at 25, (ordered from Jim Briggs.) and anything more is just overkill.
http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.html

A few other things to add, there is a bunch of different twist rates offered in 6mm. Most 6BR shooters choose to shoot 1 in 8 twists, so that they can stabilize the heavy bullets and shoot out past 1000 yards. The 6BR is a highly preferred mid to long (600-1000 yards.) range benchrest round, and has set many records along the way. A large majority of point blank benchrest shooters (100-300 yards.) shoot 6PPC with a 1 in 14 twist barrel. The round was originally developed as a Silhouette pistol round.

Back in the 80's there was a problem getting 220 Russian brass, and what was available was going for a high premium, so point blank benchrest shooters looked for different alternatives, some when back to the duce (222 rem) and many played with the 6BR cartridge, many wanted the case capacity of the 6PPC and they shortened up the 6BR calling them different names tall dog is one that sticks out in my mind. The fact is they got the 6br to shoot, but when George Kelby made a deal with Lapua to bring in good 220 Russian brass, the gig was all over, as shooters went back to the 6 PPC.

Now considering all of that, if you were going to do the 6BR for 100-200 yards you may want to do like the 6PPC guys and go with a 1 in 14 twsit barrels and shoot the same bullets they are using. I would ask the club about weight, because believe me it is hard to get a Savage to weigh in at under 10.5 lbs. They may let you compete at factory weight which is on a 12 BR should be around 11 1/4 lbs without scope, I would say it may make heavy gun weight at 13.5 lbs, our club we go with the heavy gun weight on all guns.

Last, I did not think about it until now, but another good choice for you to think about would be the duce. The 222 rem still hold a few 100-200 yard benchrest records. Back in the day it was one heck of a hot round, they shot them in Remington (700 xp, etc.) actions. Heck the smallest group ever shoot at 100 yards was shot with the deuce. You would have to change bolt heads to a 223 bolt head, and it is nothing hard to do and takes me about 1 minute to do. The duce is still highly competitive, with some older shooters still shooting them. The bullets are super cheap, and it don’t use much powder, again it is one of them calibers you can just pull brass out of the box and go. What killed the deuce for many was there was no good brass, well finally in the last year or so Lapua started making the brass, and it is readably available. (As well as Nosler and Norma.) The duce is such a legend that people are still looking at it; many claim it is the perfect marriage of powder capacity, and size. The go to powder is 4895.

The 223 rem is nothing to sneeze at with new powders, brass, and good bullets it will compete with the 222.

[barrel-nut]

Thanks again Patrick. Lots of good info. I already have a .223 bolt head as well, so I guess I have more options now. Too many choices is better than too few! I'll research some more and let y'all know what I decide, though it looks like it may be a while due to work loading me up in the next few months...