Reply With QuoteCongratulations as that's a great looking bull and some great long range shooting.
Made my first long range shot on this bull @ 695 yards with 30 degrees down hill.
Hit him three times
once through both front shoulders
once a little far back
then finally high spine to send him rolling down hill.
He ended up scoring just under 330.
I was using a 30-378 weatherby with 210 bergers, the first two shots just passed through with no expansion. the only reason he dropped was the high spine/head shot. I was disappointed in bullets performance, to say the least.
Thought I would share. Thanks
Congratulations as that's a great looking bull and some great long range shooting.
Nice bull, but would not be too quick to blame the bullet. for poor performance. Was it a HUNTING bullet or a match bullet? What does Berger list as the minimum opening velocity of the bullet used, and what was the estimated velocity of your load at 700yds?
Not familiar with your cartridge, but I would imagine the bullet would still be at or above the magic number of 2100fps, that many hunting bullets need to open reliably. This is the number one concern I have when thinking of long shots on game, what is the maximum yardage I can use my chosen bullet, and still get reliable expansion.
Sounds like you were fortunate to be able to get the second and third shots off, otherwise he might have been hard to find.
I agree that it might not be the bullets fault. It was a .308 210grain berger hunting VLD hunting bullet. Berger has varying reports of minimum expansion velocity. I have herd from 2000fps to 1800fps to 1600fps and also 1000ft-lbs.
But do to the cartridge I was using, and the help of ballistic software, I was right around 2150 fps and around 2100ft-lbs
So if we use your number of 2100fps it still should have expanded?
or at least a little?
I found this thread relevant.. http://www.longrangehunting.com/foru...26/index4.html
I dont think I have the answers. I want to believe that bergers preform great but it seems like this is the third time this has happened and the other two were at Much closer ranges. I think that people either LOVE them or HATE them, I guess Im just not sure yet.
And yes I am very lucky, for many reasons. :)
sniper
Didn't mean to take ANYTHING from your shooting. I would do well to hit the darn thing at 700yds, much less in the vitals. While your calcs show the 2100, there is no way to know for sure your exact speed or whether or not their number is trustworthy. For shooting at those extreme ranges, I would look towards a bullet like the Accubond. While it doesn't have the BC of the Berger, I am sure you can reformulate the drop and drift, since you obviously understand those quite well.
Living in CA, and being limited to non lead offerings, as I mentioned before that is the number one concern I have. I wanted to try to keep velocity down low for a milder hunting round but I am afraid I am awfully close to the "non opening" speed levels. The deer I shot this fall, had entry and exit wounds that looked very small. The butcher thought it was from a 223, I told him, "nope, 308 Win, with 150gr Nosler Etips. I missed ribs on entry and exit, but the holes looked like they might have expanded a little, but not much. I might either have to up my MV a bit or switch to my 243 with top level loads.
Looking at this link http://www.nosler.com/Bullets/E-Tip-Lead-Free.aspx you see Noslers breakdown of expansion/speed comparison. At 2100fps there is about 10-15% over bullet dia expansion. That's not much and would be had to determine on an animal. My shot was at 180yds and I calculate the bullet was right at 2100 on impact. I still would prefer more expansion than I got.
Congrats on a nice bull !!!!!!!!
Oh the work starts when the trigger is pulled....... :-\
S/shot Savage & heavy Pac Nor's rock !! 'JM' Marlin lever gun nut !
Congrats. I can't say whether or not your bullet performed right or not, but I'm sure he would have died soon after the 1st shot. We all want massive expansion and the animal to be DRT. That doesn't always happen. I shot my Elk this year at 65yds with 180gr Barnes TTSX out of my .300 WBY. My velocity should have been in the 3100 fps range. I hit just just behind the front shoulder passing between the ribs going in and out. Both holes were about pinky size. I can only assume no expansion. The Elk still only went 60 yds before it died. If I had a follow up shot I would have taken it. Like you I shoot them until there down. Definitely not taking a chance on a 6x7 Bull. I'd rather have less expansion and less meat damage then the alternative. If you hit your POA at that range I don't think I would change bullets.
I also shoot a 30-378 with either 210 berger vld's or 230 hybrid mostly targets and I hoping that I can get an elk with a 225 hornday this year to see how it does. I have never shot an elk with my 210. I did shoot a mule deer with a 165 sierra at about 300, that just made a mess. What is the muzzle velocity of you rifle? I have heard of alot of people hunting with bergers and most people like them. I guess I am going to have to hunt with the Berger 210 or 230 and see what I come up with. Nice elk, a 330 bull is a nice trophy.
I too have used the Bergers. Not out of a .30 cal but my 7mm Mag seems to like em. I made a mistake though, since the 168's where not avail at the time of purchase (i usualy shoot 160 gr speer) i ended up geting the 140's. Thought i would test em on my mule deer or antelope....I did test em on the deer....meat damage was bad, but it was mostlly my fault for hitting him in the shoulder. Didnt want to use the 140's on my elk but the snow came and it was all i had loaded up. 310 yds is where he stood...I put the first one right through the lungs, still standing and not knowing what the deal was, i shot again and in my haste, missed, still standing there i chambered again and put one through his shoulders. I didnt want to chance him running off. After the shoulder hit he wobbled around for a half a second faced down hill and ate it...looking back i should have just let him stand there with the lung shot and let it sit in for a few seconds...both passed through completely. My first thought that i had about the bullets was right after the first shot in the lungs.... it was "oh no, definitely not using the 140's for elk again, i should just go back to my good speer load" that being said, they worked, i killed him, didnt have to chase him and he tastes great, and he is a great addition to our house. I dont think i got the confidence boost from using them for elk anyway. Also a side note, we where eating some mulie steaks one night and the gf pulls out a chunk of the VLD jacket.... I was more frustrated about it than she was, but again, its not entirely the bullets fault, as my shot was not the greatest. Just my .02$. Any hunting bullet will put em down if the shooter puts it where it needs to go. Congrats on the BULL! Love seeing success stories and getting a report!
Henry.
Thank you all for your responses and Advice. I am in the early stages of my shooting career, so i know that i have much to learn.
I agree with all of you that shot placement trumps everything.
HandiRifle: I did not take offense at all I appreciate all advice and comments. like i said i am young and know my limitations of experience.
The bergers may have done their job like Wildboarem said we all want massive expansion and the animal to drop but that doesn't always happen.
Also that he was wobbling after the first shot and may have laid down and died, but my dad taught me to keep shooting till he's down, unless you know otherwise, and at that range I wasn't positive.
I shot a deer last year with a 300WBY also with 180gr barnes TSX and it made a fist size hole, at 100 yards. so i guess my mind was stuck on that instance.
Nuclabuyer: I was thinking of trying the 225 hornday's let me know your experience with them. With my 210 bergers I am going 2910 fps.
I think I am right around my cut off for min expansion. I developed my load to be light to aid barrel life... which anyone with a 30-378 will understand is short to say the least. maybe i will find another load to ramp up the speed to make more reliable expansion.
Henry1: Thank you for you experience. very useful information. Where I hunt if the animal runs more than 100 yards its very tough to find them, so i have been taught to aim high shoulder to knock them down and not run. Doing this definitely takes some meat with it but in my mind i would rather lose meat than lose an animal. also i am blessed enough to live where i do and take at lease 3 or 4 animals a year.
Thank you for all your advice, comments, and congrats. I think that a 330 bull on an over the counter public land hunt is great
If any of you would like to share your pictures and story's i would like that. I think that there is not enough pictures of this forum. (henry1)
I hate when people tell me what to do with my guns, so please don't take this as something like that. I am just thinking out loud. I am not sure that you are gaining anything over a 300 mag velocity wise and you are tearing up your barrel alot faster then a 300 mag. I understand that some people have a multi purpose gun, and if that is what this is then disreguard everything that I said. But IF it were me, hunting season is a time to turn the gun up. My 30-378 is shooting hornady 225's at around 3400. I tried to shoot berger bullets both 185 and 210 but they wont stay in one piece due to the long barrel and according to berger, the explanation says that the friction of a long barrel melts the inside due to the thin jacket. I am going to go with the 208 amax for the high BC value and the fact that it is a hunting bullet. Again to each his own, dont take this as anything more then my opinion.
Nuclabuyer, I agree. that is the conclusion that i am coming to. I built a 7mm-08 for long life, I have this gun for knockdown power and being a big boy. I think I will ramp it up.
How long is your barrel is? wow 225's at 3400 is impressive. is it on a savage build, or a weatherby?
I have been liking the A-max more and more so i will be using 208amax as well.
I have yet to shoot something with the Amax so Im excited to see the performance.
Mine is a Sako M995 with a 32" Pacnor barrel. I have never seen something with the amount of punch that this thing has. I can tell you before I had my barrel put on, I had a 26" with no muzzle break, this think was a horror to shoot. But now I have a McMillan A5, a break on the end of the barrel, it recoils like a 30:06 and it can drive tacks. It is however a long range rifle not a woods gun. I have a 300 mag or a 338 win mag that fills that void very well. My 30-378 gets shot alot because it is so powerful, fun to shoot and if the long shot needs to be take'n I will be brushed up and be confident in the shot.
Snider6464
I had written Barnes Bullets a letter about minimum opening velocities being too high for a broad band use of their bullets, and the reply I got today was that their LRX (new long range tipped X bullets) are designed to open at 1600fps. These are high BC bullets, usually heavy for caliber. For the 30 cal, they offer two, one is a 175gr with a .508 BC and the other is a 200gr with a .546 BC. Not sure how that compares to the Berger, but the low opening velocity might be just the ticket for ya.
Midway has both in stock, for around $38-39 a box of 50. Just an FYI
This was the reply I got;
Scott
Our new LRX line bullets are designed to open at lower velocities, the min impact velocity for them is 1600 fps.
Thanks,
Ryan Farr | Consumer Services
Barnes Bullets, LLC
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