A Technical Question For the Seasoned Reloaders...

[fgw_in_fla]

I typically reload for my 270win & 30.06. Bullet depth / seating and COL is governed by the rifles chamber length. My 270 likes .015 set back & my '06 likes .025 set back. This is where several months of trial & tribulation have led me. Accuracy & consistancy are best here.
I notice on some bullets (like Nosler Custom Comp.) when I seat the bullet a usual, I can see the bump on the neck showing where the end or bottom of the bullet is. Now, Is there any advantage or disadvantage to seating bullets to a depth where the end of the bullet is even with the bottom of the neck?. For example, where the neck & shoulder meet, If I seat a bullet where the bottom is even with the end of the neck, would it cause any hinderance or help?
Somehow, I sorta suspect most of the responses will be "you'll never know unless you try it".
I seem to recall an article I read a few years ago where some competitors refused to use certain bullets due to the length. Meaning, the end or bottom of the bullet protruded past the end of the neck & extended into the case by some small amount. I recall it mentioning the additional length would cause extreme inconsistancies with the accuracy.
Does anyone have any experience with seating bullets with the bullet bottom even with the case neck bottom to where it does not extend into the case or end short in the neck? Or, is it a situation where best results are obtained from finding the sweet spot with the bullet set back or jammed into the lands?
What say ye experts? Help put an old guys worries aside... ??? ??? ???

P.S. I have a few bullets that are kinda long where they extend into the case even when they're set tight with little or no jump. Those seem to be the least accurate and are somewhat inconsistant. They're called "Blems" from Midway & look like Hornady SST 150 gr. x .277".

[keeki]

when a bullet is seated into the case it takes up powder space thus causing higher pressures than a shorter bullet of same weight. There is no "golden rule" per say on how little a bullet should be seated, there is however a rule on how deep it should be seated. If you have it deep enough in the brass so that bullet is secure and have no concentricity issues then your good to go. I personaly like to have the width of the bullet in the neck but cant always get that.

[fgw_in_fla]

@ keeki -- I like that... The width of the bullet equals the depth set as a rule of thumb... or trigger finger, as the case may be. This is pretty much a curiosity thing as I'm pretty satisfied with the criteria I'm using. My Savages are old & in excellent condition. Mosy people don't believe the groups I can acheive with them. Even for older rifles with a few gazillion rounds thru each. The thing that sparked my curiosity was while seating some 168gr. x .308 Nosler Cust. Comps. I noticed the end of the bullet is noticeable at the neck base. right before the neck becomes the shoulder. It made me kinda wonder but, as we said earlier, if it shoots good, leave it the hell alone.

Anyway, my curiosity is somewhat sisfied for the moment.
Thanks for the info.

[keeki]

the thing with seating a bullet too shallow is it can cause a low pressure problem and that is just as bad as a high pressure problem. You want to build pressure pushing the bullet out of the neck

[Slowpoke Slim]

Well I have a little seasoning, but not as much as some, been handloading close to 40 years now.

There have been forests of trees killed to make the paper that was spent writing articles about the subject you're asking about. I would preface this with most of this attention is directed at and by benchrest and precision long range competitors. I'm only reading between the lines, but guessing that you are primarily loading ammo for a couple of hunting rifles, for some traditional big game hunting? Much of what you're wondering over is just not really necessary for a typical factory hunting rifle, shooting game at typical hunting distances, say out to a 300 yard max or so.

For myself, I do some of each type of handloading. For my hunting ammo, the first criteria for me is the bullet has to be properly constructed for the task I ask it to do. Then it has to be of proper weight for the task. Then the bullet must meet my accuracy requirement for the task. Generally I'm looking for 3 shots at 1" @ 100 yards or better. Most of the time I can get that.

As far as bullet seating depth, my first requirement before accuracy is that the cartridge must be able to feed through the magazine on a repeater rifle. Not applicable if it's one of my single shots. Then I play with loads at "book" length and see if I can get what I want there, unless I have a rifle with a known long throat, then I might just seat it out to max magazine length and run my test loads at that depth. If book length doesn't do it for me, I will play with moving the bullet further out to the lands, keeping the magazine length in mind also.

Somewhere in all of that, I usually come up with a load that works, may have to switch bullets a few times to get it, but often times not.

No where in any of this have I cared one whit about how far the bullet sits down in the case, whether it's intruding into the powder space, or if it's sitting at the neck shoulder junction. If I was hunting with cast bullets, which I usually don't, then I would want a bullet that does not expose any bullet shank to the combusting powder. Since I'm not, I don't worry about that.

Some guys worry about the bullet sitting down into the case and "taking up" powder space. This has never been an issue for me, as I have usually been able to work with a suitable powder to get the load to an acceptable point. I don't let maximum velocity rule my load development, I let maximum accuracy do it. If my load is 100 or 200 fps slower than it "should be", no critter that walks is going to know the difference. Either I hit it properly or I don't. A couple of hundred feet per second is only going to impress internet forums. No deer or elk that ever lived would be able to tell the difference from being shot with 2 identical bullets, but one was 200 fps faster.

I have had a few hunting rifles, even target rifles that have been very picky on what bullets they would shoot. Then I've had some rifles that just seem to shoot whatever bullet I fed them. Each rifle is it's own individual, and must be treated as such during load development. Your example of the blem 150 gr Midway bullets could just be your particular rifle doesn't like that bullet. This does happen, and fairly common (at least to me). For example, I have several hunting rifles that will not shoot Barnes bullets at all. No matter what weight bullet, or powder and charge, they just won't shoot them. I have a couple of others that will shoot a Barnes bullet very well. There's nothing wrong with Barnes bullets, but it's just an example of what can happen.

For my big game loads, I don't really like to seat my bullets so they chamber "tight". Same reason I don't neck size only my big game ammo. All my big game rounds are FL sized, and are at least 15 thousanths off the lands, most are more. I don't want any issues with chambering another round if needed, especially if my barrel is already fouled.

[keeki]

a good analogy is if you have ever pulled a crank rope on a gas engine and it snaps back at ya because the crank didnt turn over. this could happen when you dont have enough neck tension on a bullet. there is 2 explosions when you pull the trigger, the first one is the primer and the powder is 2nd. You dont want the primer to push the bullet out because the crankrope will snap back.

[barrel-nut]

fgw, I have used the Midway blems in 7 mm 160 gr. ( I think they were Nosler Accu bonds) and had very good results with them; essentially same as non- blems. These are also very long bullets that protrude into the case, and they happen to be the only bullet I've ever found this particular rifle to like.
About the Nosler custom comps showing through the neck, I've noticed this with other bullets as well, and I think it has to do with how much the neck is squeezed down when it's resized. When the neck is resized, it's inside diameter is reduced to a size a few thousandths smaller than the bullet diameter, to provide proper grip or tension on the bullet. When the bullet is seated, it expands the neck back out slightly. If the base of the bullet stops shy of the neck/ shoulder junction, it becomes visible where the expanded part meets the "un-expanded" part. I don't think this is anything to worry about; just try as others have stated to get at least one bullet diameter of seating depth. IE a .308 bullet should be seated at least .308 into the neck. This is not a hard and fast rule, just sorta conventional wisdom.

[Eric in NC]

a good analogy is if you have ever pulled a crank rope on a gas engine and it snaps back at ya because the crank didnt turn over. this could happen when you dont have enough neck tension on a bullet. there is 2 explosions when you pull the trigger, the first one is the primer and the powder is 2nd. You dont want the primer to push the bullet out because the crankrope will snap back.

You don't get an explosion with smokeless powder - it just burns fast. Lack of neck tension is fine as long as it is consistent (check some of the old schutzen loading techniques).

You get the detonation problem you mention with light chargers of real slow burning powder and they will happen no matter how tight the bullet is crimped.

[fgw_in_fla]

Excellent info from all however, don't misunderstand. There is no problem to speak of. My curiosity was slightly aroused while loading a few 168 Nosler custom comps for my 30.06. I noticed the bullet was short enough to not make it to the bottom of the neck & it reminded me of an article I read some years ago. I don't hunt. I do eliminate renegade & destructive hogs here in Fla. when necessary. 99% of my shooting is targets (paper, plastic jugs, melons, etc) from distances of as much as 400 yds. Just for fun. My local range has weekly competitions for bragging rights for the week but that's the extent of my competition. All for fun and sometimes wild pork sausages.
The "blems" I spoke of worked OK (not great) even if they were substantially into the case. Just seemed a little unusual and I probably didn't work hard enough to come up with a good accurate combo. I kinda ran out of them before I could. Also, I always try to load with the least amout of propellant necessary to give me any kind of accuracy. I don't like to waste powder on a few FPS if I can do the same job for less..... and I'm too cheap.
As for slowpoke, if 40 years is the best you can do, I don't know if your info is reliable. I was hoping to run into the guy that invented gunpowder for some info....

Thanks again to all.

[squirrelsniper]

I don't know about seasoned, I like to think I haven't gotten old enough to need any extra seasoning yet ;D. I just turned 30, but have been loading for 15yrs, and learned it from my father who was loading ammo before I came along. I'm sure there's still a lot to learn, but that's what makes it fun.

First, there's someone somewhere who can tell you how the bullet being in a certain spot affects the flow of powder and/or gases as they enter and pass the case shoulder and case neck.

Meanwhile, back here in the real world, I only have a few things that concern me about bullet seating.

#1 - If the ammo will be used from the magazine instead of carefully single-loaded, I require the bullet engagement in the neck to be a length equal to or greater than the bullet diameter. Example: .308" bullet must be seated at least .308" deep into the case. There is one caveat however; only the bearing surface of the bullet counts in the measurement. A boattail portion does nothing to "hold" the bullet in the case, so the boattail length doesn't count. The reason I want this is simply to make sure the bullet is held in alignment while the cartridges get bounced around in the magazine during recoil and during the sometimes rather harsh chambering process. Of course if you single load each round and they reside in a tight-fitting carrier until loading this is required.

#2 - When you say you can see where the bullet ends in the case neck, that kinds of concerns me, not for safety but for accuracy reasons. I worry that either the bullet isn't seated straight (or the case isn't straight) or that there's too much neck tension. If the bullet isn't seated straight, it's pretty easy to tell, there'll be a bulge on one side and not the other. I have also seen rounds where too much neck tension helped to induce runout, likely due to variations in neck thickness. I've never seen that on cases that were neck turned to even thickness. You certainly want enough neck tension to hold the bullet in place, but I rarely use more than .003" neck tension on anything except rifles (or handguns) with a lot of recoil. I typically stay around .002" neck tension for precision ammo. So it kind of depends on just how well you can see that bullet.

[fgw_in_fla]

Squirrel -- I appreciate your response. Not to be too awfully concerned about the word bulge when I mention it here. I'm not saying it's very noticeable but, prominent enough to see & feel when you run your finger across it. My only concern, if you want to even call it that, was the bullet length, boat tail notwithstanding, did not extend into the neck for the complete length of the neck. It's about 3/4ths of the neck length. Point in fact, it shoots great. I have no complaints on the accuracy or consistancy. My original thought / question was concerning the effect this would have on accuracy if a bullet is seated full depth into the neck or where I have been seating mine, about 3/4ths into the neck.
I suppose it's one of those things where if it ain't broke, don't screw with it.
As I said in an earlier post, my shooting is purely recreational.... great personal pleasure while shooting a few hunderd yards and hit what I'm aiming at, repeatedly.
I seem to recall reading or hearing from the 1000 yard guys, bullets seated full depth was critical to accuracy. Or, maybe the guy I heard it from was just needeing something to complain about & that was all he could come up with??
I don't know. I'm not worried about it. As I said, it shoots great. I suppose the reason I even brought it up was it was the first time using Nosler Custom Comps. I'm on my fourth batch out of the same box & just started getting the results I'm looking for. I'm comfirmed hard core Nosler Ballistic tip kinda guy.
Stay Well...

[darkker]

fgw,
I think you are worrying about nothing.
IF, you have the correct bullet dia, and you notice a "bump" I think of 2 things.
It is possible that your dies are under-sizing, causing the bullet to have to stretch the brass to fit in.
It is also possible that (if they are factory rounds) they have some odd crimp.

Provided your bullets don't fall out of the case, how far they protrude into the case is irrelevant to you.

[1Shot]

...I just set my OAL to where it shoots the best & don't worry about where the bullet sits in the neck..

[fgw_in_fla]

Dark & 1 shot.... Too late. All loaded up & ready for a day of making holes in paper at the county range tomorrow.
As I said, I wasn't worried about it. I've seen it on a few different rounds I make. I was just curious about setting the bottom of the bullet even with the base of the neck (ie neck / side wall of case juncture). I was just wondering about the accuracy aspect of seating bullets even with the neck bottom. Maybe one of these days when I'm feeling adventuous I'll load up a few different sizes / types & give it the 'ol college try.

Thanks to all for you input.

[1Shot]

Dark & 1 shot.... Too late. All loaded up & ready for a day of making holes in paper at the county range tomorrow.
As I said, I wasn't worried about it. I've seen it on a few different rounds I make. I was just curious about setting the bottom of the bullet even with the base of the neck (ie neck / side wall of case juncture). I was just wondering about the accuracy aspect of seating bullets even with the neck bottom. Maybe one of these days when I'm feeling adventuous I'll load up a few different sizes / types & give it the 'ol college try.

Thanks to all for you input.

..You'll end up having to change your powder loads some if you seat them to the shoulder neck junction..Alot of people do that to help on bullet run-out...Sometimes it works, sometimes it does'nt...Mostly depends on your seater..

[bigedp51]

keeki

My lawn mower has electric start, try a new analogy............

Like pull my finger (rough noisy sputtering starts) ;D

fgw_in_fla

On a hunting rifle 100% reliability and function come before shooting bug size groups, I always make up workup loads starting with the lowest charge listed and work up. My Hornady bullets are seated to the channeler most of the time for proper bullet length.

I also don't have a problem with short seated bullets and being able to see where the bottom of the bullet is. Accuracy is all about controlling barrel vibrations, and bullet seating depth only plays a small part in this.

Reduced loads and short seated bullets.



Not too bad for pistol bullets shot out of a 62 year old rifle with cordite throat erosion.



I also have bushing bump dies and when fireforming new cases I use a smaller than normal bushing to grip the bullet tighter when jambing my bullets hard into the rifling to hold the cases against the bolt face. (and you see more bullet location with tight necks)

Bottom line, work up your groups and then fine tune the load by playing with seating depth if you wish to, just watch for pressure signs when changing seating depth.

[keeki]

I like that analogy ;D

[fgw_in_fla]

Gotcha on all of the aforementioned & I have some knowledge & experience with seating depth / pressure increase ever since I blew up my Glock by firing a bullet that was seated very deep with a max charge. Helluva way to learn.
Most of the ammo I reload looks like the one you put in the photo. When a bullet has a cannelure, it always sits above the end of the case by approx. 1/8 in or so. I try to seat 'em about .015 or so off the barrel lands. Past experimentation has shown this rifle like the bullet right at the rifling. I used to seat bullets very accurately but, now that the barrel is almost completely worn away, I just seat them as per my previous COL info. I was going to R&R the barrel but, I gotta help the surgeon pay off his boat. He's going to repair a torn rotator cuff (x2) in my left shoulder in return.
Thanks for the info, everyone.
Have a Happy T-Giving Day.