Reply With QuoteGo with the 6.5 x 47 Lapua as fast as you can. Sell the 308 barrel for what ever you can get and call Jim at NSS for a CBI barrel. Mine was at the 1/4" at 100 yards without much load development. I am expecting to get well under that.
I have a mod 12 F/TR, which is generally a pretty good shooter - I get 0.5" groups for 5 shots at 100yd on average, and often a bit better than that. I am using 168gn Sierra MatchKing projectiles at 2845fps (measured).
I am basically looking for any suggestions that anyone might have to make the accuracy and consistency any better than it is now, without going to a match-grade barrel. I have already changed the factory cheekpiece for a Karsten one, and I am using a Nightforce NXS scope and mounts.
Has anyone done any modifications to their mod 12 Target rifles? Do they benefit from doing some bedding or action truing work? Anything else anyone would recommend?
I have been toying with the idea of changing it from .308Win to 6.5x47Lapua, so if I go down the match barrel route, that is probably the direction I will go.
Go with the 6.5 x 47 Lapua as fast as you can. Sell the 308 barrel for what ever you can get and call Jim at NSS for a CBI barrel. Mine was at the 1/4" at 100 yards without much load development. I am expecting to get well under that.
As many have said on this forum before, trigger time will improve your accuracy.
if your planning on shooting it in f-t/r class you have to keep it 308win or 223 only .and as said trigger time is the best way.
Have you tried this to improve your groups http://www.accurateshooter.com/techn...torque-tuning/
Have your tried switching up your bullets? My pet load for 308 is IMR 4895 at 45g with Hornady 155g A-max SST. That or change the trigger to the SSS Competition Trigger, get SSS to time and true the action. However, I don't know if these changes will allow you to compete in f-class.
They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
Free floating the barrel, bedding the action and adjusting the trigger are the basic tune up for any rifle. Following that load development and brass prep will make a big difference. To get below 1/2 moa your brass and loads must be consistent. Try shooting ladder test with differing seating depths, and then differing powders and loads. Look to the 6BR website for loads to try.
One final test is to have someone else shoot the gun. The shooting style we use is a big factor. Try different styles to see what the gun likes.
Terry
I have tried several different 155gn bullets, but the rifle just doesn't seem to like them - I tried different powder loads and seating depths, but always the same result - in a 5 shot group, I will get 3 good shots and 2 bad shots on every group. With the 168gn Sierras, they were much better.
I will get a gunsmith to bed and true the action, and keep practicing for now until I can justify the money on putting a match barrel on.
Try 175 grn Match Kings and IMR 4895. My 308's like them better than 168's.
Comparing the two, the 6.5 Lapua is a better long range caliber than the .308. As mentioned, IF your going to compete in F Class your stuck with .308. If your just wanting something to reach out at the longer ranges, the 6.5 Lapua is the way to go. Yes, the 308 will reach out to 1k but the 6.5 Lapua will do it a lot easier and use less powder.
Vietnam Vet, Jun 66 - Dec 67
when i first built my .223 AI, i didnt have the time or stuff to bed it...the bbl wasnt even floated...but i did get half in groups at 100yds with one load. this last spring i finally bedded it, floated the bbl too. it will shoot under a half inch with more than 5 different handloads....anymore, when i am putting together a project i bed it right off the bat. no sense in not doing it, it can only help you. just my .02$.
Henry.
FWIW, don't forget when you re-attach your barreled action to the now bedded stock, use an inch\lb torque wrench and tighten the action screws to 35 or 45 in\lbs each. Tighten the front one first, and the rear one last.
This is a very important step in obtaining consistent accuracy from your Savage rifle. (Ask me how I know..... ::) :P ;D)
Dave
Check the brass. Brass that is thicker on one side or not concentric can cause this. What is the runout on your brass and loaded ammo?Originally Posted by Quinny
I use Lapua brass, so there should not be an issue with quality. I often check the brass weights, and the extreme spread of weight is around 2gn across 100 cases.
I don't have the tools to measure bullet runout. I use Lee collet dies, and from reports I have had from other competition shooters that use the collet dies, that the collet dies are very good and runout is not really a problem with them.
I find it strange that if it was a problem with the brass, that the accuracy and consistency using 168gn pills is much better than with 155gn pills.
I have ordered some 175gn MatchKings, so I will give those a try. I will also check the tension of the action screws and torque them to the specs that are recommended in the article that Balljoint posted.
As I said in the original post, the rifle shoots pretty good as it is, just looking for a few tips and tricks to try and squeeze a little more out of it.
2 grains spread is big. Is there a velocity difference lightest to heaviest?
I was having a terrible time with flyers with my M 12 until I read this thread and followed the link posted by Ballpoint. That method of establishing action screw torque showed immediate and dramatic improvement. I don't know if the improvement will last as I just tried it today, but I am very encouraged.
It is a 2gn spread across 100 cases that have been fired 6-8 times. I usually batch the cases by weight so that all of the shots in a group are using brass that varies by no more than .2gn.
I readjusted the trigger last night and tightened up the stock according to the torque settings advised in the article Balljoint posted. I have some 175gn SMK's to try this weekend, I will see how that goes.
As far as velocity goes, I have only shot 3 shots from my current load over a chrony, they registered at 2841, 2845 & 2849fps.
Use your chrony as much as you can, it can help determine if your problem is related to your loads. Example today, I shot my 06 and I usually get .5 groups. Today the first 3 shots were about an inch!! I was going nuts, then look at the chrono numbers and those loads were all over the place. If I had not have the chrono I would have been looking all over the place trying to find what was loose in my gun. Got the "proven loads" on the rifle and back to .5 groups.... Sometimes my rcbs 750 drifts, probably what happen here. Will pulll the bullets and check the powder again... Those that you shot with the chrono look good, but I am telling you, sometimes that powder charge...
Sometimes my rcbs 750 drifts, probably what happen here.
Mine does this too. Very frustrating. Use the tare function to re- zero often with your empty powder scoop on the scale.
Please explain!Use the tare function to re- zero often with your empty powder scoop on the scale
[B][SIZE=3]Dennis[/SIZE][/B]
My Range Master 750 will creep over time, sometimes as much as 1.5 grains over several hours. I definitely notice it drifting off .1-.2 grains during the course of weighing out 50 powder charges.
Before using it i first plug it in and let it warm up. Then i go though the calibration cycle using the supplied weights. I know that the pan that I weigh my charges in weighs 114.5 grains; before starting I put the pan on the scale and press "zero". This is a "tare" weight function- it basically just compensates for the weight of the pan. It should now read 0.0 with the empty pan sitting on it. Proceed to weigh charges. Periodically place the empty pan on the scale; it should still read zero. If it doesn't, press the Zero button to re-zero. Alternatively, you can just watch the scale after you remove the pan... In my case it should read "-114.5". If it reads "-114.6 or -114.7", then it's time to re- zero.
In any case, the best policy is to never completely trust any electronic scale, especially the "Made in China" models such as ours. Use a good balance beam type scale to check your charges, say every fifth or tenth one, to verify your electronic scale. I have to admit to getting lazy on this lately, but I normally do it and it is a good idea especially for near-max loads.
Sorry if I hijacked this post, but this may have some relevance to the OP's problems.
Makes since!
[B][SIZE=3]Dennis[/SIZE][/B]
I don't think that the powder charges should be an issue - I weigheach and every charge using an RCBS 505 balance beam scale, so they should be pretty consistent.
I also batch my brass and projectiles by weight, so I can ensure that I have the 5 rounds which are making up the group are as close to exactly the same as I can get them.
Good, powder charge consistency is not an issue for you. This is reenforced by the very consistent chrono numbers in your previous post. I posted the above mainly because Dennis asked for clarification.
Have you tried the 175 sierras yet? I think you may get better results with these, especially at longer ranges. Consider getting a concentricity gauge to sort your loaded rounds for runout. I like the Sinclair concentricity gauge, it runs around 90-100$ depending if it's on sale. This was a revelation for me; it took my handloading to a higher level. Even with quality dies, you still get some "duds" that may have as much as .005" runout; for best results I like to have mine at .001 or less. With practice on a gauge such as this, you can actually see the tip of the bullet wobble as you spin it if it is off as little as .005-.010. Of course the dial indicator will tell you exactly how much it's off, but my point is if I can see it wobble with the naked eye, it can't possibly give optimal results. I generally separate these by placing them in the rear row of the 50 round box, and use them as foulers. The good ones go in the front of the box, and the really perfect ones ( rare) get marked with a sharpie. All this won't solve all your grouping problems but it won't hurt either. The more consistency you can get in your loaded rounds, the better.
The Sinclair gauge is kind of a "one trick pony", but it does that trick well. There are other very good ones, such as the NECO gauge and rcbs has one too, and there are others. The NECO can check all sorts of things, and is recommended by David Tubb in his DVD on precision reloading. This DVD is also worth the money.
Ok, so what is a "bad shot" here that you are talking about? do you have a picture, how do your groups measure with and without said bad shot?
You need more than an example of 3 loads to call all your loads accurate as far as the powder charge/speed. I have check and double check loads in a group of 12, use the same weight bullet (all 150.1 gr instead of 150.2) and have come with different speeds and in occasion a "bad shot" that turns what could be a .3 group into a .5 group.
IM not trying to be argumentative here, just stressing the need to use a chrono as a tool to single out one possibility. In a group of 12 I often get doubles or triplets. But sometimes I do get a bad shot and when I compare the video to the speed guess whuat? Bad shot=bad speed... If I had not been using the chrono I would go crazy thinking that the scope is coming loose, the stock is coming loose, or God know what else might be loose or is it just me that flinch that shot... If your speed is constant and you have a problem somewhere else. Have someone else shoot the rifle, see if they experience the same 2 bad shot out of 5. If not take the shots at a different rate of what your are doing now. Ex if you shot them all with no wait then wait a until the gun cools down or viceversa.
Is my opinion that while you find your fluke you need to use your chrono. Actually, I dont see much reason not to use one. It just take 3 to 4 min to set it up and it gives you an assurance that your loads are constant and if there is a bad shot you need to look somewhere else.
Good luck.
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