Hello Guys,
Ok here's the problem, went to the range last weekend with my new Mosel 12 in 6.5X284 BVSS. Brand new Black Hills Ammo as shown in pic's. I fired one round lifted bolt handle and couldn't pull bolt back, I had to hit the bolt with the palm of my hand on bolt handle to get it opened. Next I cleaned barrel and fired second round SAME THING. Now follow this, I put a very little dab of oil on outside of case and fired round, guess what no problem lifted bolt and slide back (like no problem ). Chambered next round, fired and was alittle hard but slid bolt back , but next round could not get bolt back, had to palm it again. So next round back to oil again and guess what NO PROBLEM. NO OIL I get problem, lube case NO PROBLem. The bolt handle lifted I would say with no problem. Ok I haven't hand loaded yet, but when I do I'll Light load then to see if pressure was too high in Black Hills Ammo. In the mean time does anybody have any idea's? Gun, ammo, chamber, ? Here are pic of ammo .
Thanks Jerry
Yes, I had similar issue with 12 LRPV, finish on the chamber was terrible, it will deform your brass to a point you wont be able to cycle fired brass again even after FL sizing. The fix for this is to re-chamber, just run chamber reamer to take off whatever chatter you might have in your chamber.
Try to chamber fired brass and see if you can cycle it.
here is chatter in my LRPV
OK I'm going to do that right now . Stand by,Originally Posted by jinx-)
Yes, I had similar issue with 12 LRPV, finish on the chamber was terrible, it will deform your brass to a point you wont be able to cycle fired brass again even after FL sizing. The fix for this is to re-chamber, just run chamber reamer to take off whatever chatter you might have in your chamber.
Try to chamber fired brass and see if you can cycle it.
here is chatter in my LRPV
OK your're right, I can't get a fired round to come out of chamber!!! Should I send it back to Savage? How does something like this get's by? Quality control? What happened? Wasn't gun test fired before shipping to Distr.?
Jerry
Looks like I can see an ejector mark in the head of your fired brass - that would mean high pressure. Oiling the case makes for extra high pressure (actually doesn't increase pressure, but increases bolt thrust a LOT).
I would certainly try different ammo before sending it back.
Sounds like a headspace issue. Too much head space and you get symptoms that look like high pressure.
May be that the Blackhills ammo was sized to minimum headspace and your chamber is set a bit long ...
+1
I would totally agree. There is clearly an ejector mark on the case, what is hard to tell from looking at the picture is I would say that there is primer cratering (Flow back into the primer hole.) on the case as well. Both point to signs of overpressure. Take your fingernail and run it over the primer if you feel a lip, that is primmer cratering. Hard primary extraction (Bolt lift is sticky, or clicky especially at the top of the stroke.) is also a sign of high pressure. I say that signs are pointing to hot ammo. I would highly suspect the ammo, more than anything being wrong with the rifle. Do the necks and shoulders look shiny? No, Savage chambers are not perfect, (many times a tad bit off center or crooked.) usually rougher than a custom chamber, but I seriously doubt it would have anything to do with a pressure problem.
Definate pressure signs. Try some different ammo before you get too radical on the gun or savage.
Take a picture of ALL of the fired cases with them laying on their side. Rotate 90 degrees and post another pic...until we can see all four sides of the cases.
That ejector mark DOES indicate high pressure.
You could try putting a piece of cellophane tape on the back of the case and try chambering it.
If it chambers easily, put another pieces of tape on, etc to estimate how much headspace there is with these rounds.
Let us know when the bolt becomes noticeably harder to close, how many pieces of tape.
here is picture of deformed brass, also it had unadjusted firing pin which did create similar craters
and craters and ejector marks
after I adjusted firing pin, the cycling issue didn't go away. Here you can see ejector marks, but almost no craters
to check for headspace get candle and smear some carbon on the shoulders of fired brass and cycle it in your action then remove it, if shoulders of the brass had full contact with the chamber it will indicate tight headspace, if no contact then it will point to excessive headspace
o yeah, forgot to mention the chamber I had was also 5 thousands off center with the bore, so it could also contribute to hard to cycle cases.
I agree with some of the other posters, that looks like high pressure to me, because that is a serious ejector mark there.
Personally, I've never had an ejector mark that bad (to the point of smearing when the bolt was opened) with an excessive headspace issue. The only time I've had that is simply with HOT loads.
With excessive headspace I typically get primers that are flattened out until they completely fill the pocket (without any rounded edge at all) and no ejector mark.
As for the slightly cratered primer, that could be high pressure or it could just be that it's a Savage. I've found that Savages typically have way more clearance between the firing pin and firing pin hole than what is necessary, which ends up cratering primers even with normal pressures.
Also, I've had Savages with fairly short throats, which can be good for accuracy, but it ends up making loads run hotter than they would in the more common half-mile-long factory chamber. So, I would recommend using a black permanent marker and coloring the case shoulder, case neck and bullet. Let it dry, then chamber it, remove it and check. If anything suspicious shows up there, post a couple pics and maybe someone here can help diagnose.
It would also be nice to have a couple more pics of the case body to look for any rings or such around the case that might indicate a groove in the chamber (typically from a chip not being cleared out during chamber reaming).
And finally, please don't purposely lube your cases or chamber and then fire the rifle. That creates a tremendous amount of bolt thrust when the round is fired and quite frankly makes me cringe when I think about the load placed on the bolt lugs.
[b]A witty saying proves nothing - Voltaire (1694-1778)[/b]
Ok all thanks to all. I will post pic's as you requested. Hold tight I'll post tonite. And again thats for all your comments.
OK here are the pic's. Let me know what you think now. GUN OR AMMO?
[img width=512 height=768]http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w1/jrallo3789/ammobad018.jpg[/img]
Measure the difference in case head expansion from a fired case to an unfired.
The "hitch" in the bolt is caused by tight case heads and lack of primary extracton.
"As long as there's lead in the air....there's still hope.."
is it possible to get close-up view on brass pieces I marked, by the way have you tried carbon test I mentioned before?
OK I measured and here are the numbers: unfired ammo is 498.5-499.0. fired ammo is 501.00. What you think?
JINX- I haven't done that yet. But I will and post pic's.is it possible to get close-up view on brass pieces I marked, by the way have you tried carbon test I mentioned before?
.002-.0025 is a lot for a case of that size. Typically .001-.0015" case head expansion will result in ejector marks. That load is hot for your rifle.OK I measured and here are the numbers: unfired ammo is 498.5-499.0. fired ammo is 501.00. What you think?
"As long as there's lead in the air....there's still hope.."
Should I contact Black Hill's about it or try my own lite handloads and see what happens. I bought 100 unprimed Lapua cases should I start with these? Are the Black Hill's cases no good now?.002-.0025 is a lot for a case of that size. Typically .001-.0015" case head expansion will result in ejector marks. That load is hot for your rifle.OK I measured and here are the numbers: unfired ammo is 498.5-499.0. fired ammo is 501.00. What you think?
+1 - I would call Black Hills and try to find some different ammo if you aren't a loader. If you are a handloader, buy some brass and start working up some loads.
I played with the 6.5x284 on a Savage (with a Pacnor tube) and found some of the published data to be VERY hot for my gun. Just think there isn't enough experience with the round yet to ensure uniform "sanity" with loads.
Sorry - didn't see your post. Yes call Black Hills and yes start out with begining loads with your new brass and work up.
Your fired brass isn't totally trash, but I wouldn't trust it for more than one or two more loads with known "ok" loads.
Just be sure you never oil a round before firing it and be sure to remove oil from your chamber before firing as well!
Thanks Yes I know about oil on the cases it was just a test to see what happened it was very very lite on cases. Guess I will try my handloads and see where it goes from here.
Lapua brass has a gradual heat treat and typically is harder towards the base. It is much more resistant to pressure than Norma. That's one of the reasons that it has a longer case life.
"As long as there's lead in the air....there's still hope.."
Read somewhere that Black Hills loaded some a little warm but had backed off. Had some 204's when they first came out from Winchester that would drop primers out. Couldn't get them replaced.. Cratered primers might be a sign of high pressure - There are a couple of other things that will also cause that. I would pull a couple rounds and use the brass to reload ( use the same bullet and a chrony ) and see if the problem is still there. apples to apples.....
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