F Class T/R 308. Lapau Brass But What Primer Size, Small or Large?

[chris.z]

I'm planning on getting a Savage 12 F Class T/R Rifle for shooting up to 600 yards to start.

I've always wanted to try reloading and this would be a good excuse to start.

I've read reports that small primers in the Lapua brass improve results and some others that state there is no improvement at all.

I plan on using Varget with either Federal premium Match Primers 210M or 205M primers topped off with a Berger 155.5 Full Bore or Sierra 155 palma bullet to start with.

If you were just starting out, would you buy the large primer brass or the small primer brass?

Has anyone had success with this rifle and componet combination? Should I consider other componets?

Thanks For All The Help!

Chris.z (Michigan)

[darkker]

I have an old 10FP that I shoot 1,000-1,200 yards. I use LC match brass, and CCI BR2 primers, Win 748 and SMK's 175's.
What I found was that Varget did some erratic and odd things pressure wise on the way to 2600fps with this load. With 748 I am able to beat that velocity, with no case pressures(measuring expansion).
I found the difference between WLR and CCI BR2 primers, was that my SD on velocity dropped about 10fps with the bench rest primers.
I'm not a federal fan, but I thought that the 210M was a magnum primer?? I would NOT use mag primers. They(In my velocity tests) REALLY have large velocity swings.

I personally wouldn't use the small primer pockets, because I see no need for it. FWIW

[memilanuk]

Skip the Lapua Palma (small-primer) cases for now. If you are just starting out reloading and shooting extended distances, you've got a whole raft of more important issues to worry about besides the (theoretical) benefits from the PPC-sized flash holes.

Lapua brass, 210M primers, Berger 155.5 Fullbore or Sierra 2156 Palma bullets, and Varget are pretty much a de-facto standard load. Winchester brass (heavily sorted) works pretty well, and Remington 9-1/2 primers have given me excellent results. Jump the Sierras 20 to 30 thou; the Bergers I would start @ 45 thou jump and move in only if you really can't get it to group otherwise. Thats basically the load (Berger 155.5BT jumping 0.045", Lapua brass, lots of Varget lit by a 210M) is the load I took to Bisley for the FCWC in 2009. The load I took to Ireland earlier this year was basically the same but sub N150 for Varget (couldn't buy the stuff in sufficient quantities for a while there). I'm starting to prep a big batch of Lapua Palma cases as I open the last of my jugs of N150... but I have four jugs of Varget sitting on the bench waiting...

As mentioned, Varget is pretty much the gold standard for .308 Win whether using 155s, 168, 175 or even 185gn bullets. Individual guns may like other powders better though, so you may want to look at IMR 4895, H4895, IMR 8208XBR, Viht N150, RE-15 or even IMR 4064. Ball powders like BLC2, Win748, Ramshot TAC, etc. can give excellent accuracy with some loads, but I see very, very few long-range competitors bringing ball powder loads to the firing line - most that try them get burned sooner or later by temperature and/or pressure issues. Some of the stick powders mentioned can start acting weird under temperature extremes, but powders like Varget (and now 8208) made their mark by being less sensitive to swings in temperature.

[chris.z]

Thanks Monte,
Its an absolute pleasure getting advice from a true professional.
You make it sound so easy. I have enjoyed reading your other posts of good advice.

The other items I'm still chewing on are:

Brass is on sale should I buy 100 or 200 pieces?
Choice of dies: Will probably go with Redding #33155 Type-S Match Bushing 3-Die Necksizer Set. (after reading this article: http://www.chuckhawks.com/reloading_F-Class.htm)
Press: I don't think you can go wrong with a Rock Crusher or a Redding Big Boss II.

Thanks again for being so generous with your time and knowledge.

chris.z (Michigan)

[memilanuk]

Well... I do it slightly differently. Actually, I bounce around from one thing to the next to the next and back again, although this is about the most consistent setup that I usually end up recommending to people.

Skip the three-die competition set. Last I checked, that came with a competition seater, a competition neck sizer, and a body die. Get a Forster Ultra BR seater (or the Redding Competition seater if you really are stuck on a brand). The Forster does the same job for less $$$ in my experience.

A Redding Type 'S' F/L bushing die with a few different sizes of neck bushings based on what kind of brass you are using, if you are neck turning or not, etc. Order the carbide ball expander in the appropriate caliber (.30) to go with it. Unscrew and pitch (or at least put back in the box for later trade value) the original expander plug, and put on the floating carbide ball. When you have the die completely setup with the right bushing, you'll have it so that the bushing sizes the neck just enough (not too much) so that the ball kisses the inside of the neck on the way out. It's small, round, hard, slick, and floats about the center so that it really can't stretch the neck or push it off center - all it does is ensure the case neck is round on the inside and expands the necks all to the same ID for consistent neck tension and release. F/L size the case every firing, bumping the shoulder back 0.001 or so (i.e. not setting it up per the directions, which will have you over-sizing the brass) will give you consistent neck tension and ease of chambering without having the case 'sloppy' in the chamber.

Alternately if you want to neck size only, I'd say get a Redding Body die and a Lee Collet die - the collet die works surprisingly well for the $$$, and you can use the body die every few firings as needed to keep things chambering easily.

A more recent option I haven't played with enough is Forsters Precision Bump die - similar to the Redding Type 'S' bushing die but differs in that it only bumps the shoulder, not sizing the body. It also doesn't have an expander ball at all, which some people like, obviously I am of a different mind about.

Gotta go... dinner calling

[chris.z]

Wow that's great advice, I'll look into the Foster option ( I like to save money too) and the floating carbide ball too.

In a past post you recommended the Hornaty Lock-N-Load Comparator & Seating Depth Tool, I just wanted to let you know I looked at these tools and the reviews say they are the best thing since sliced bread! A "must have" that should be in everyones toolbox. Can't wait to get mine.

Thanks again for sharing your expertise.
You have been a huge help!

chris.z (Michigan)

[GaCop]

Nice to hear a comment about the carbide expander ball. I have one coming today for 7mm/08.

[Luckus]

For my 308 FTR I use a Lee Collet die,(no Lube or runout) Forster shoulder bump die, Forster micro seater die, Lapua brass, WLR primers , and H4895 with 175 gr SMK,s.

[chris.z]

It great to hear about different combinations of brass and powder.
I'm still doing my homework on the dies!
For starting out, do you think I should buy 200 pieces of brass or is 100 sufficient?
Its on sale right now so I'm on the fence about getting the second hundred in the same lot number.

Thanks for help,
Chris.z (Michigan)

[memilanuk]

If they are on sale, get as many as you can afford. Odds are good they won't be cheaper in the future...

If you start shooting matches... a one-day local match will probably take anywhere from a little over 50 to a little under 90 rds, depending on the format. Two and three-day matches usually have extra stages (possibly team matches) and you could need as many as 250 or more for a 3-day event. Showing up with *exactly* the minimum number of rounds required is usually a bad idea...

[chris.z]

That sounds like good advice.
I know that That I want all the brass in the same lot number and its a one time proposition.

I'll plan on buying:
308 Lapua Brass, 200 or 300 pieces ($44.80 per 100)
Varget Powder 2LB ($18.00 per pound)
308 Berger Bullets 155.5 BT Full Bore, 200 Bullets, ($30.07 per 100)

If the Federal 210M primers are in stock I can pick those up for $25.59 per 1K. But I was told these are almost never in-stock.


If anyones interested, I'm getting these suppiles from Cabelas using an in-store 20% off coupon. The coupon can't be used on line, I already tried that.
I received the coupon in the mail last week, I love that place!

I pretty tight with my money. " When I open my wallet..........Washinton Squints"


Thanks for the guidance,
chris.z (Michigan)

[SMK Shoe]

+1 on getting as much brass as possible at first. Even just a basic weight sorting will cull a few from the group. I group in boxes of 55 ( I know, odd number) but always the chance of loosing a piece in the grass or split neck. Then I keep all that were culled in a group and use them for warm up or initial load testing. My usual is a 6.5 x 47 lapua ( 100 pieces was 88$ thru powder valley) Midway was charging 138$ a hundred, so I bought 1100 pieces. Good for life with brass. I do use small rifle primer pockets. Don't know how much better they are but I do have some very LOOOWWW ES JMHO

[darkker]

If you want LC brass, go to Barnett's. www.gibrass.com VERY cheap.
Powder is kind of like cologne, very individual. If someone finds something that works for them, excellent!

Don't buy-in to Hodgdon's "extreme" advertisements too deeply. The advertisements mentioned from about a decade ago, were aimed at ball powders such as Win 748. But if you read the fine print, the advertisements weren't exactly apples to apples. Win 748 has one of the lowest flame temp's out there. Stick powder has all manor of retardants added to it to make more stable; or Ball powder-esk.