Expected Accuracy with Ghost Ring Sights?

[thomae]

I am attempting to develop a hunting load for my Savage 10 FCM Scout (7.62x39). I am planning to hunt with the factory ghost ring sights. For anyone with ghost ring sight experience, what kind of accuracy should I experience without using glass?

Background: I understand cheek weld, sight picture, etc... I have shot DCM/high power competitions with open sighted AR15 and M-14 rifles, so I ( ::)think I) understand the fundamentals.

I am currently breaking in the barrel and trying to develop a good hunting load. I attempted a ladder test today and got about a 5-6" group (27 rounds). Minute of deer? Yes. However, I am wondering if it is even worth it to try to develop a pet load as I would with a scoped rifle.

Your thoughts would be appreciated, especially if you have used a ghost ring sight-equipped rifle.

[snipecatcher]

I doubt you will be able to shoot them accurately enough to tell much of anything. I would just pick a good bullet and load the rounds up as warm as you feel comfortable with and go hunting. Try shooting late in the evening if your range allows. It can be difficult to use a peep style sight in low light conditions.

[bootsmcguire]

Would it be a good idea to temporarily mount a scope you already have to develop your load and then you will have a known accurate load to learn your ghost sights?

Just spit balling here....

[thomae]

Snipecatchter: Sounds reasonable. I am trying to see if I can safely push a 150 grain Partition Gold (why? because I have a grunch of them. ;D) to about 2200 FPS which will give me 1000 pounds of energy out to around 250 yards. Good thought about practicing in low light conditions as that is when the deer usually show up.

bootsmcguire: I had thought about that, but don't have a long relief scout-type scope to use. The only pistol scopes I have are 1x red dots and I don't think that would help much...although I may just try it out to see.

Appreciate the responses. From a sitting position, I think I can hit a deer at 200 yards - that's the longest shot I can take at my local shooting range.

All the best.

[noelfr]

Your accuracy will be better than w/ open sights and much less prone to damage than a scoped rig. Ghost rings are simply large aperture peep sights. The eye automatically centers the top of your front sight. When I was a kid I used to hunt rabbits by removing the eyepiece from my target rifle and shooting through the threaded mount (we didn't think to call it anything then). This gives quicker acquisition and less sensitivity to lighting conditions. You'll find that low light is much less of a problem and the sight picture becomes automatic.

Sighting in w/ a scope (4 power or so) would help w/ load development. Red dot sights are a whole different optical can of worms and wouldn't really map over. If you could lay your hands on a 22lr w/ peep sights and burn up a 1000 or so rounds over a week or two then you would become very accurate quickly. Good luck and have fun.

[Eric in NC]

Are you sure it is a ghost ring and not an aperture? Sure looks like a Williams aperture sight in the pictures. If that is the case, you should be able to exchange the inserts to ones with smaller diameters and get a finer sight picture.

You can certainly shoot sub MOA with a good aperture setup - the downside is that as you get a finer and finer setup, it takes longer to get on target. That is why the "huge" ghost ring openings are designed for quick but less precise target acquisition. I would still think you could do better than 5 or 6 inches with a ghost ring setup though.

Try a smaller insert/finer front blade or a scope as was suggested to develop a good load then learn how to get that good with the ghost ring!

[thomae]

Are you sure it is a ghost ring and not an aperture? Sure looks like a Williams aperture sight in the pictures.

Yes, it is a Ghost Ring sight.
It is also a Williams aperture sight.
The aperture is simply a large one.
Feel free to call it what you wish. I won't quibble about semantics.

As Noelfr stated:

Ghost rings are simply large aperture peep sights.

I appreciate your thoughts and comments.
I am familiar with the inherent accuracy of a good aperture setup. I have acquitted myself respectably on the long line shooting service rifle.

I may look into changing the size of the aperture, however, as this will be a hunting rifle for use in the woods of Pennsylvania, a I fear a small aperture will not allow me the quick shots and sight picture I want/need, especially in low light conditions.

Part of the problem is that my eyes and my glasses (progressive bifocals) are not set up optimally for focusing on the front sight.

I may try a Fiber optic front sight blade and see if that improves things (It may simply make too big of a blob). The factory rifle comes with a brass bead front sight blade. I may try to change that for a more traditional flat top blade.

Sighting in w/ a scope (4 power or so) would help w/ load development. Red dot sights are a whole different optical can of worms and wouldn't really map over.

Unfortunately, I don't have an appropriate scope to use for load development. My comment about the red dot scope was simply to use during load development, because I have no long/extended relief rifle scopes and no other pistol scopes to use. I will not be hunting with a scope.

I am thinking that I will also get a front sight hood as well in order to protect the sight blade in the woods.

As for the accuracy of the Rifle, let's face it. It's a Savage. I am sure with the right load the rifle shoots better than I can. ;D

If you need me, I'll be out at the rifle range practicing. ::)

[Eric in NC]

Not arguing semantics either - just wondered if it was threaded for an insert as all of the Williams sights of that type that I have seen are. If so, you could screw one in for load development and target work and remove it for hunting (if you wanted). Just trying to understand what you had (haven't put my hands on the new Savage Scout).

If you have a typical 4MOA red dot, it will not help much.

[thomae]

Eric,
Good point. I hope I didn't sound belligerent...If so, I certainly didn't mean to be.
Yes, it is threaded for the insert.
...and yes, I can get a smaller aperture for load development (and I may decide to do that).

The factory aperture has a .093" hole.

I took a look at the different Apertures available, and the twilight apertures are advertised as being a lighter color around the actual sight hole in order to improve visibility in low light. I took a silver sharpie and colored in the aperture just to see what would happen. When I looked through it my front sight was in much sharper focus.

I will see what happens the next time I go to the range. With a sharper front sight picture, I would hope to expect more accuracy.

After I shoot it, I'll decide if I want to get a different aperture and/or different front post for load development and/or hunting.

If you can find one, go handle the scout at your local gun shop. They are well balanced, mount nicely, and point well, at least for me (of course, YMMV). I really like mine. The proof of the pudding, however will be what happens in the woods this autumn.

All the best, and thanks for your interest and your comments.

[noelfr]

Some quick thoughts over what you have responded with:

Fiber optic sights work really great in combat shooting for quick acquisition and using basically the front sight as the main referent. As light fades they become large dark blobs and you lose some of the "fineness" of a front sight.

I used to use a multiple hole aperture in target shooting. This allowed me to dial in what I needed. The smaller the aperture the greater the field of view and the sharper the front sight.
Alternatively, changing the aperture on a William sight is so easy that you could carry a smaller one for bright, bright conditions and a ghost ring to sub in darker conditions. Takes about 10 sec. to change out. With a Williams you can also remove the apertures entirely and use the threaded portion as a large ghost ring.

BTW there is a coyote alive in south Texas because I had a target aperture in a rifle when dawn was just breaking. Everything dissapeared when I looked through the sight. In afterthought that would be a 50+ yr old coyote. Hope he had a long life full of rabbits.

[thomae]

Thread continued in the ammo and reloading - Standard Cartridges section because it now focuses on the loads I have found that seem to shoot reasonably well. Pictures included!

New (continued) thread is at: http://savageshooters.com/SavageForu...c,44777.0.html

All the best,