Wow... Nice personal attack.
That really speaks volumes.
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All I have to contribute is that chili most definitely does not contain beans.
Personal attacks can be worded many ways.
My two volume set contains the complete history of the M16 rifle with a chapter on the case hardness problem and what was done about it, and YOU decided to be insulting. ALL 5.56 military brass MUST be made of a higher quality of brass by mil-spec standards and you stated "There is no difference in brass". And then you said my book "didn't seem to be the complete history of the cartridge and weapon system.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...ehardness2.jpg
5.56x45 cartridge brass MUST meet mil-spec standards and is a higher quality standard than commercial cartridge case brass.
Your crow will be served cold darkker and will be covered in a bitter sauce.
Bon Appetit and enjoy
cant we all just get along here ;-}
The author Louis L'Amour who wrote "How The West Was Won", "Hondo" and the "Sackett" series once said that the old West was a very polite place. And if you insulted someone, hands were slapping leather.
The biggest problem most forums have are midgets setting at their computers pretending to be giants. When you quote printed material and are told that you are wrong by these midgets, then hands start slapping the keyboard.
The winner is the one with the best factual printed material.
"All the information in the world is printed in books and all you have to do is read".
Attila the Hun
:argue: :deadhorse: :frusty:
+1Quote:
Problem is, none of this has anything to do with the what the OP asked. All he wanted to know was if he could use it. Yes, he can, plain and simple.
Saw another chart similar to the one posted on page one where lots of 223 brass were weighed and compared. Interestingly enough the brass with the smallest SD was the Winchester. Not to suggest that it is better than the Lapua but interesting nevertheless.
i read some where that the win. brass was just as good as the lapua brass if not better. but thats just hear say .
but i have had no problems with ith yet
Below is from MIL-C-9963F it states the pressure requirements in cup and psi that YOU refuse to believe. If you don't believe my cut and paste then just look up MIL-C-9963F for yourself. 52,000 cup = 55,000psi and please note the army also tells you both pressures are in pounds per square inch.
MIL-C-9963F
15 October 1976
MILITARY SPECIFICATION
CARTRIDGE, 5.56MM, BALL, M193
3.7 Chamber pressure.
3.7.1 Measurement by copper-crush cylinder.-The average chamber pressure
of the sample cartridges, conditioned at 70° ± 2°F, shall not exceed
52,000 pounds per square inch (PSI). The average chamber pressure plus
three standard deviations of chamber pressure shall not exceed 58,000 PSI.
3.7.2 Measurement by piezoelectric transducer.-The average chamber
pressure of the sample cartridges, conditioned at 70° ± 2°F, shall not
exceed 55,000 PSI. The average chamber pressure plus three standard
deviations of chamber pressure shall not exceed 61,000 PSI.
Last I checked the library was also full of books filled with bad or incomplete information yet are being portrayed as "the truth" and "complete history". Some of them are even books pertaining to science and history. *gasp* I also know for a fact that most self-proclaimed 'forum giants' are also self-proclaimed know-it-alls who generally have zero first-hand experience or knowledge on the subject, but they feel they're experts on the subject because they read it in a book once and in a few different forum threads.
Now I suggest you all start playing a little nicer with one another, cuz if you don't I can promise that you won't like my solution to the problem.
And sometimes books and documentation are all you need to prove a point, military 5.56 brass is made from a higher quality brass. The cases can't be made thicker because it would cause a internal capacity problem therefore it is made with a better grade brass. The military also loads to a higher pressure than commercial .223 and the base harness and design is important at higher pressures, and the last thing you need is a primer popping out of an AR15 in a match and jamming the trigger group.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...1/hardness.jpg
Army Research Laboratory
Aberdeen Proving Ground, MD 21005-5069
Vickers Hardness Measurements of the M855
Cartridge Case Base
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA497469
That release shows a hardness comparison between military cases that did, and did not drop primers. There is no comparison to ANY other brass.
That is an internal QC report. They wanted to see if a dropped primer was due to a difference in hardness. The answer was no, the differences that did exist were normal lot-to-lot variation; Which they noted as the brass having "Large Standard Deviations".
While that is interesting, all it does is list the range that military cases are spec'd at, but NOT what commercial is spec'd at.
**Update***
I just got off the phone with several companies.
Gary @ Hornady said,
They shoot for 0.001" thicker walls on 5.56 stamped brass, for a minor reduction in internal capacity. However no difference in annealing or brass stocks.
Zak@ Nosler said,
They only sell 223 stampings, but just size, chamfer, etc whatever comes in.
Jeff@ Remington,
Who reminded me several times that NATO does not follow the SAAMI guidlines, said they use the same brass stock and the same build specs.
Still not a definitive "spec range", however seems to follow my assertion that there is no difference.
Now if the contention is that: There COULD be 2 different specs, then yes there COULD.
The more rational approach(in terms of mass production) to the issue is to only use one spec that will satisfy the requirements of both applications, and get away from all of the production changes, and lot issues.
The QC report "Vickers Hardness Measurements of the M855 Cartridge Case Base" is part of a larger study to see if the military 5.56 cartridge case can lightened or made from lower grades of brass and hardness. (go back to commercial standards)
The answer is NO, the military 5.56x45 is loaded to higher pressures and the military chamber has a larger base diameter than the commercial .223
The military case has higher standards than commercial brass and the moderator at AR15.com has reference material located there and also states the brass is a higher quality and has higher quality manufacturing standards.
The link below shows photos of the higher standards for military Lake City cartridge cases and why the QC report was done. Federal is the same company and part of ATK who manufactures the ammunition at Lake City to military standards.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/f_6/42_Reloading.html&page=3
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...Picture039.jpg
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...hardness-b.jpg
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...ehardness2.jpg
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...sshardness.jpg