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I'm going to build a 6.5 x 284 Norma for speed goats, hopefully elk and mulies. The barrel will be a Criterion 26" 8 twist. Here's my question: Should I order the barrel in a sporter configuration? I've been running heavy sporter barrels on the Creedmoors which weight 3.5# at 24" long. The same barrel in a light varmint weighs 4# 1oz. I like the stiffness of the heavy sporter but looking to lighten up the rig. Opinions or thoughts?
I've been contemplating some of the same. For me, I think that the sporter bbl is what will ultimately work the best.
I think for a strictly hunting rifle that it will work just fine.
Lighten up the rig is easy, Go with a 22" sporter.
I know "Velocity loss", "So and so on the internet said", " It will limit your range", Blah Blah Blah.
Yeah they say the same about the 25-06, the win mag and every other overbore cartridge but the reality is that 22" sporter barreled hunting rigs probably kill more game on the planet every year than all the other longer barrel lengths combined. I have a 22" 25-06 that has been piling up whitetails for many years despite what the internet says about needing a 26" barrel blah, blah, blah.
As for me, The last build that I'm really proud of and feel I made the biggest improvement to is a model 11 I cut down into a little 16" barreled .308 carbine. Nothing want's to find itself in the crosshairs at any reasonable range. The improvement to the ease of carry, portability, pointability and general handiness and feel of it is simply amazing.
Just a friendly word of advice to not over think this and to help put what you read into context.
Those that write it aren't gonna carry your rifle for you and the game you shoot isn't gonna tell you your barrel is too short or thin.
Minimum Heavy barrel, better yet, light varmint.
Cut the length to get the weight you want.
Id be interested in knowing the approximate velocity loss for each inch off the barrel length.
No point to having a 6.5x284 if you end up with 260 velocity, and it will still shoot out faster than the 260.
But then a 50 fps loss might be worth some off the weight if you intend lugging it around much, and the goat wont ask about the amount of clicks you added.
Not a very big hole in the barrel also equates to thicker walls. Fluting the barrel would shave some off also.
We also tend to dream big, or maybe long when it comes to shooting, and especially when thinking about speed goats.
You will as a rule get one shot at a speed goat, if you miss its over at least for now. Just another thing to consider if an option presents itself.
I was in your situation a few years back and decided I really needed a 6.5x300 wsm to handle the extreme shots I envisioned at the goats.
I had a 25x06 24" but I decided I needed a better gun. I shot 2 goats with the 6.5, one in WY and one in MT on the same trip.
One was 420 yds and the other 610 yds, so as it turned out the 25x06 would have done just fine, and a Creedmore even better.
And what I spent on the new gun and scope, would have pretty much paid for the trip.
Goats fall over pretty easily, and frankly so do mulies when compared to a whitetail.
If you still have the Creedmore id be taking it, and be considering say a 7 Rem mag, or a 280 AI for elk and mulies.
Thanks Yobuck and Jeep. I read somewhere in a velocity study where they gradually cut the barrel and measured velocity (that I can't find right now) that in general, you give up 35-40 fps for every 1". I can't recall how long the barrel was when they started. So if we go from 26" to a 24 or 22" we may see a reduction around 80 to 160 fps. I do love my Creedmoor and you're probably spot on about the speedboats. I think my problem is I have a 6.5x284 that I've used to nail 6 prongs. That gun has a 26" CBI light varmint on an old Savage single action in a Rayhill stock and the rig is heavy, but I love the caliber. I think that's what's driving me to build a lighter 284. Jeep agreed, I've killed a bunch of stuff with 22" sporter barrels. Also No arguments a 7 Rem Mag is a hammer on elk. Maybe I should be happy with my Creedmoor which is also built on an old short action single shot using a 24" Shilen heavy sporter. If I do build a lighter 6.5 x 284 I'm considering a fluted CBI heavy sporter and I'll likely stay at 26". Hmmm what to do
The barrel cut down velocity tests I've seen average around 20-25 FPS for a .308 from 26" as they cut it down to 18".
Yeah I know it's apples and oranges.
Before committing to cutting a hunting rifle down to 16" I looked at what some of the striker and centerfire handgun shooters with 12"-15" barrels were doing as far as range and velocity. There's some impressive info out there. I was still apprehensive but cutting down a bolt action carbine after shooting long barreled accuracy oriented rifles and standard hunting rifles for so long. This little experiment really opened my eyes and changed a lot of my thought process on what makes a great hunting rifle. Man I'm glad I did it and it has become one of my new favorites due to the many benefits I discovered after chopping it up.
Maybe spend some time and Google around using different search terms and see what you can come up with as far as short barreled 6.5x284 handguns and rifles. I saw several internet claims of impressive velocity's and accuracy using 6.5x284 "pistols".
Even if you don't choose shorter, which would certainly be an effective means to shed weight, I don't think going with a thinner profile would have any detrimental effect on a hunting rig at all.
Good luck and I'm sure you'll wind up with a nice rig.
Much will be determined by where you hunt the goats. A private ranch will offer more and better options than public land will.
But not all land owners are the same either. You could close your eyes, pick a gun off a rack and go kill an antelope.
If you want to shoot long, make sure the land owner and the people you go with are on board and up to speed with doing it that way.
The guns aren't the issue, but lots of other things could be.
If your interested you can pm me and ill give you my number. I might be able to fill in a few blanks at least on the hunting part.
The velocity loss is almost all an ego issue. Folks with 16" barrels can routinely hit steel at 1000-1200 yards with the 'puny' 6.5 Grendel.
The place where velocity is important is in assuring reliable expansion at the target. The MV and BC establish the range where the bullet impact velocity drops below that needed for reliable expansion. The threshold ranges from slightly below 1600 fps to as much as 2200 fps depending on bullet design and manufactuer.
Best bet is first, decide on the bullet and nominal powder charge you plan to use. Then use a reliable reloading manual or other source to get a muzzle velocity with a specified barrel length. This lnk will allow you to use the information to estimate the new velocity for shorter or longer barrels: http://shootersnotes.com/calculator/velocity-estimator/.
Then use a good bsllistics calculator to see if the expansion threshold is at least as far out as you intended hunting distance.
Well lets also remember that some people use 223s to shoot at 1000 yds and even much further.
So from the standpoint of just hitting a target, id agree barrel length or even cartridge size and velocity, aren't the main issue.
As for BC, its a rather new word for many of us who think the higher the number the better the bullet is for long shooting.
And although that is true, its also true that a lower BC number can be improved by higher velocity.
For target shooters accuracy is everything, even if its obtained at the expense of lower velocity.
For hunting however, and especially long range hunting, velocity is key to proper bullet performance causing tissue damage which causes hemoraging and ultimately death to an animal.
Certainly a good shooter can use a 308 or a 30/06 with a good 180/190 gr bullet to hit a whitetail deer at 1000 yds and even further provided the scope adjustments will permit that.
But, unless a vital area is hit causing spine or head damage, you probably wont see any indication the deer was even touched, although it will ultimately die.
Do the same thing with a 300 ultramag with the same bullet and there will be a big difference in the wound channel even if hit in the same spot.
Hit a big leg bone and the difference will be a damaged leg compared to no leg or yes even a ruined hind quarter.
But most of the meat is better than the other option which might be none.
I put a 26" heavy sporter criterion on my weather warrior and it is HEAVY...... Definitely not a gun i would want to lug all over the mountains. I will say the accuracy is amazing though.
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I am currently building a straight 284 win for purely a hunting rig and went with 24 inch heavy sporter
but I fig my other 3 rigs 2 have 26 inch varmit weight and 1 has 26 inch bull so no matter what I will be lighter then those but the 22 inch to 24 inch debate well I am still not sure but barrel is ordered so debate over but I will be second guessing for some time I am sure
Don't sweat it too much, You can always cut some off, but you cant put it back.
Years ago Dan Lilja of Lilja Barrels conducted a test by shortening a long barrel on a large 338 an inch at a time.
But some of the newer powders weren't around then either.
The accuracy issue really dosent come into play until after several shots have been fired causing the barrel to heat up.
And unlike a deer, or an elk, multible long range shots at an Antelope would be rare.
Where the gun and shooter can put the first shot is the important thing on Antelope.
Unless you're shooting 10 shot in a row at 1,000+ yards, there is no reason for a hunting rifle to have a heavy barrel. Barrel length depends on cartridge.
For example, on my hunting rifles...
I like 20" for 308win & 223rem because they seems to get descent velocities with even a 20" barrel.
For 243win, 270win, 25'06, 6.5-284norma, 284win & 30'06 I like 22" sticks.
For 300winmag and other similar size/overbore cartridges I like 24" twigs.
I don't like my hunting rifles to weigh more than 8.5 lbs but preferably around 7 to 7.5 lbs.
Cold bore tracking is very important for skinny barrels.
Just for reference i have a 6.6x284 that is cut to 21 inches. I get a velocity of 1906. Not a ton faster than a creedmoor but i am sure i could bump it up a bunch if velocity was a concern. It is a fairly light load
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MI223... Ummm 1906 fps is not anywhere close to being faster than a creedmoor. Creeds run 2700 fps with a 143 grain pill and even faster using a 120-130 grain pill. Even with a 21" pipe its still getting out there @ 2500 fps. Maybe you meant 2906 fps?
The 6.5x284 is supposed to be a real barrel burner so that velocity is REALLY low.
Really like this discussion and I have not ordered a barrel yet. Waiting on my 6.5 Creedmoor 24" heavy sporter to arrive and plan on some load work with some of the powders that push velocity before I order a 6.5x284 barrel.
Ive always been a Criterion barrel fan but as I understand it they will not flute a heavy sporter. I may end with a sporter contour because Rackfreak is correct. The 26" heavy sporter can be heavy on long treks. They weigh 3.5#
Oops had a few typos in there.Quote:
Originally Posted by SageRat Shooter
2906 would be the correct velocity
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