Ultra Low Recoil Trail Boss Powder in .308

I just joined the forum and have been reloading for about a year now. My wife like shooting her 38 SPL, but will not shoot my new 10FNCP-HS Precision due to the recoil. Money has been pouring into this new hobby so I realized getting my wife involved would make things go easier. To my surprise the Hodgdon/IMR/Win loading manual listed 14.0 gr of Trail Boss under a 150 gr Nos BT. Trail Boss is a really fluffy powder and 14 gr will fill the .308 case with no room for a double charge. They list this at 1417 fps, i clocked mine at 1081, 1088, 1079 and 1062 fps. I was going to try for accuracy, but I could not get the rifle back from my wife. First shot she holed a rubber gold ball at 100 yards!

I noticed Handloader magazine had an article using Trail Boss for 6mm, .260, 7mm, .308, .30-06, .300 WSM and .300 RUM. They were using 9.0 to 12.0 gr for .308 with better velocity spreads at 12 gr, about the same as mine (before I shot my crony).

I plan to try Titegroup powder as it is also listed in the IMR manual with 8 gr under a 168 gr SIE HPBT. I would be interested in any Low Recoil loads I could try. Trail Boss is good as you cannot get a double charge, but metering is only fair. Titegroup meters better, but you could get a double charge. I would be curious about a load for AA#2 which meters great.

looks like you are almost sub-sonic.....almost begs for a muffler ;D

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Originally Posted by sha-ul

looks like you are almost sub-sonic.....almost begs for a muffler ;D

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That would be interesting. I looked up the speed of sound as 1128 fps. By the way, at the other end off the low recoil spectrum, I bought so ammo from Sportsman Guide in .308 which screams out of the barrel at 4400 fps. The bullet is an 11 grain plastic! The bullet and case are molded in one piece with a brass base with a primer pressed into the bottom. The plastic is the weakest at the base of the bullet, so when fired the bullet part breaks off and screams down the barrel. I used these in my Browning lever action (before I got the Savage), and they worked fine at 100 yards. They say they will work at 300. I'm not a good enough shooter yet to give you accuracy data, but I can tell you the bullet buried itself completely in the plywood backstop. It mushroomed pretty good as well. At $.17 each and very light recoil they were cheap and fun to shoot.
I did not see any plastic left in the barrel. A few were a tight fit due to the bulge where the base was pressed in. They are marked 7.62 X 51 with a DAG head stamp and a lot of German words. I have not tried them in the Savage. Although there is no recoil, my wife doesn't like the loud sound. I think she equates sound to recoil.
Anyway this plastic ammo is interesting and fun for plinking. Not good for semi-autos.

I would not use Titegroup since the 8gr only has about a 20% case fill and you could actually fit 5x charges of 8gr in it. I shoot a lot of subsonic 308 in 2 rifles with a suppressor, and tried Titegroup. It gave poor performance because the powder charge is so small that actual performance is position dependent in the case. If the powder gets off to one side mostly, it gives erratic velocity and accuracy.

I use Trailboss for all 308 subsonic now and VV N110 for subsonic 338 Federal (H110 would also work).

You can get 40-50% recoil reduction using the Hodgdon MEL loads (moderate effective loads) in a 308 using IMR 4198, H322, IMR 4895, or H4895 and going to lighter bullets (130-150gr range). From the Hodgdon printed 2009 manual...starting loads.
130gr bullet IMR 4198, 33.0gr, 2646 fps, ~40-50% recoil reduction
130gr, H4198, 35.0gr, 2779 fps
130gr, IMR 4895, 42.0gr, 2771 fps
130gr, H4895, 41.0gr, 2669 fps
130gr, H322, 35.0gr, 2436 fps

150gr, H322, 35.6gr, 2583 fps

Note: H110 powder would also work using a start load of 33.0gr which gives 2688 fps with a 130gr bullet (43,281 psi chamber pressure) and 2600 fps with a 150gr bullet (50,000psi chamber pressure)

These MEL loads would be good for deer, antelope, and varmints too, besides target shooting.

[quote=johndoe3 ]
I would not use Titegroup since the 8gr only has about a 20% case fill and you could actually fit 5x charges of 8gr in it. I shoot a lot of subsonic 308 in 2 rifles with a suppressor, and tried Titegroup. It gave poor performance because the powder charge is so small that actual performance is position dependent in the case. If the powder gets off to one side mostly, it gives erratic velocity and accuracy.


Thank you for the info. I use a Dillon 650 with a powder check so I don't think I would get multiple loads. But what good is a load if it isn't consistent? On the other hand, I don't want to weigh each Titegroup load. I am seeing +/-0.3 grain variation on the 14 grain. Some vary a lot more, but the powder check catches them.

Save yourself the hassle, stick to H4895/IMR4895/Varget/etc., and get a muzzle-brake.

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Originally Posted by firemachine69

Save yourself the hassle, stick to H4895/IMR4895/Varget/etc., and get a muzzle-brake.

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I totally disagree. Muzzle brakes are loud. Reduced loads are quieter and more cost-effective to boot.

In the last few years I did a Savage build using the 7.62x25 Tokarev round. The rifle had a 24.5" barrel. I loaded it with everything from 110 grain to 180 grain bullets. I used Trailboss, Clays, HS-6 and Longshot for that build. The reason I used the Tokarev is for the reduced case capacity to keep the powder against the primer.

I would try Trailboss because it is a fluffy powder that will take up more of the case capacity. Case capacity is going to be the consistency killer. I can say in my testing, of other subsoinc loads, that if you are using a smaller amount of powder it makes a difference in how the powder is in the case. If the powder is at the rear or front of the case is the difference between supersonic and subsonic or at least that is what I observed. This is why Trailboss is better, it takes up more volume than conventional powders making powder position less critical.

With my Tokarev case I settled on HS-6 for bulets that were 110-155 grain and Longshot for 155+. The only problem I had is that my throat wasn't deep enough for heavier bullets. By the time I got enough powder in the case I couldn't seat the bullet deep enough for the throat. I was still able to get it as quiet as a 10/22 shooting subsonic ammo (without a suppressor). It was subsonic but because of the heavy bullets the energy levels were up there. The next version I build will definitely have a longer throat.

A few friends and I have been going back and forth with testing subsonic loads for various 30 caliber guns for a few years now. I have a metric ton of data on subsonic loads that I have amassed. If I can help just ask I will do what I can. My friend does a lot of subsonic 7.62x39 loads, he has a few special built guns with 308 bores so he can use standard bullets. I had a AR build in 7.62x39 using a 308 bore as well. I shot mostly 180 grain in it before I sold it.


Here is a 168grain SMK loading compared to a 45 ACP:
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Savage/S5000149.jpg[/img]
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Savage/S5000151.jpg[/img]

Link to My Tokarev build

Dolomite

That's a funny looking round.

Interesting project. Thanks for sharing.

That 7.62x25 Tokarev round looks cool. All bullet and no powder! Thanks for the photos. I can't go with a muzzle break. My wife relates noise to recoil. I just wished Trail Boss would meter better.
Warthog

If your willing to get a custom barrel, have you thought about using a 7mm Remington Bench Rest Cartridge necked up for .30 bullets. It was developed for the XP100 pistols and was very accurate fired the pistol's 14" barrel.

The case capacity of the 7mm Remington Bench Rest is 2.18cc as opposed to the .308 catridge's 3.43cc. The 36% reduction in capacity should allow you to experiment with a wide variety of powder to achieve both the lower velocity and excellent accuracy.

In fact it should be more accurate than the .308 cartridge. If my memory serves me right, I think the 6mm PCC held the 1000 yard record for quite some time.

The 7mm BR handles bullets up to 172 grains, so necked up you should be able to use the heavier .308 bullets that have very good ballistic performance.

When you look at both cartridge's dimensions the Remington Bench Rest seems to be a shortened .308. I don't know if you can tweak the Savage magazines to feed the shorter
rounds, you shouldn't have to modify the bolt and extractor.

You can buy the 7mm Remington Bench rest cartridges from Midway for 69 cents each in quantities of a hundred.

I apologize for the additional post, but I realized that I was making things too complicated.

I do think the 7mm Remington Bench Rest is a great cartridge but it is silly to create a .30 caliber wildcat cartridge. Why not convert to the 7mm RBR cartridge?

Buy a 7mm08 savage bull barrel and have a gunsmith modify the barrel to 7mm Remington Bench Rest. You end up with a more accurate rifle no matter what loads you shoot. After my first reply I did a google search on 7mm Reminton Bench Rest and ran across this.

http://www.ehow.com/how_5191329_crea...king-bank.html

Hmmm, better subsonic loads, better cartridge cases at a much lower price, significant reduction in powder usage lower recoil and a lot of information on accurate loads over a wide distance range. 25% reduction in velocity using a 150 grain bullet doesn't impact anything I plan to hunt. I would much rather have an accurate round than a fast one.

In the next few months I planned to purchase a Savage Model 10 PC Precision Carbine in .308. I was going to ship it to Shooter Supply for a little bit of accurizeing. I think I will talk to them and see what they would charge for the an additional 7mm RBR barrel. I might even see if they could madify their magazines to feed and chamber it

I've been playing with the Trailboss and 165gr cast bullets working on a sub-sonic load so far I've not gotten there but this time of year I'm all over the place and my range time has been put on the back burner. The cast bullets I'm getting are like $55 for 500 and 9.5gr. Trailboss you can shoot all day without earplugs it's just a little crack about like a 22 standard velocity round and there is no recoil! it's fun!

I would NOT recommend a muzzle break! my ex would shoot my 308 but I put a break on the 25-06 so she would go deer hunting and she shot it twice and said no more! dang thing is too loud and it was very loud and a waste of $125 on my part. The Trailboss loads are just awesome and cheap to boot. Later,

Kirk

I been playing with Trailboss also running 10.5g behind 175 hpbt and 147 pulled tracers those are cool! ;D

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Originally Posted by Ksmirk

I've been playing with the Trailboss and 165gr cast bullets working on a sub-sonic load so far I've not gotten there but this time of year I'm all over the place and my range time has been put on the back burner. The cast bullets I'm getting are like $55 for 500 and 9.5gr. Trailboss you can shoot all day without earplugs it's just a little crack about like a 22 standard velocity round and there is no recoil! it's fun!

I would NOT recommend a muzzle break! my ex would shoot my 308 but I put a break on the 25-06 so she would go deer hunting and she shot it twice and said no more! dang thing is too loud and it was very loud and a waste of $125 on my part. The Trailboss loads are just awesome and cheap to boot. Later,

Kirk

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Ear muffs are required with a brake.


I love the sound of my 10FLCP-K. Sounds kinda like a howitzer. ;D

Just shot a bunch more Trailboss loads today over the crony. With 10.5 grains of TB and a 175hpbt out of my 12bvss 26" barrel I was running an average of 1050fps. It takes 2 full revs. of elevation to get back to zero at 100 yards,about 21"with my turd scope.

Cranked elev. to max and was watching nice little poofs of dust about 500 yards out in a feild seemed like time of flight was a good 1-1.5 sec.

Really fun stuff and suprisingly accurate to boot.

I'm very surprised your bullets aren't tumbling at that velocity.

As soon as the weather breaks i'll put it on paper with some distance on it and see what it looks like.

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Originally Posted by dolomite_supafly

In the last few years I did a Savage build using the 7.62x25 Tokarev round. The rifle had a 24.5" barrel. I loaded it with everything from 110 grain to 180 grain bullets. I used Trailboss, Clays, HS-6 and Longshot for that build. The reason I used the Tokarev is for the reduced case capacity to keep the powder against the primer.

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That is almost exactly a 7.62 Micro Whisper.

I actually started another in the same caliber. This time I am using a 11 twist rather than 10 to check for stability at subsonic velocities. It will also have a SS 16" barrel that will be tensioned. Hopefully it will be as accurate as the last one I built.

Dolomite