Rifle for Scouts?

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11-21-2018, 09:34 PM
TNAndy

Rifle for Scouts?

I am a NRA Certified Rifle Instructor and a Certified Range Safety Officer. I earned these certifications so I could teach Rifle Shooting Merit Badge to (up until recently, "Boy") Scouts. I have access to five rifles that are appropriately sized for 11-year-olds.

The problem is, these rifles aren't ideal for older Scouts, say 14 years of age and older. Rifles that are too small aren't comfortable to shoot. Worse, I have questions about their accuracy, although it's certainly possible the fault lies with either the cheap bulk ammo I had been using or the hunched-over shooting position the Scouts had to assume. They can choose to shoot seated or prone, but either way, the rifle is supported on sandbags.

I'd like to buy one (or more) "regular size" rifle(s) for these older Scouts to use. The constraints are: 1) It must be a bolt action .22 LR. 2) While it can have a box magazine, it must allow single-shot feeding into the chamber. In other words, the Scouts won't be feeding rounds from the magazine. 3) Tube magazines are expressly forbidden. (I have no idea why since the rifles are only used in single shot mode.) 4) It must have iron sights. 5) This is the crux of the matter--the Scouts must be able to consistently shoot 5 shot groups that can be covered with a quarter at a distance to the target of 50 feet. If my math is correct, this translates to a smidgen better than 6 MOA. 6) It must be easy for youth Scouts to clean.

One rifle that interests me is the Savage Mark II FSS. I certainly hope it can shoot under 6 MOA groups with match grade ammo. How do these rifles do with cheap bulk ammo? I'm not only providing my time and my training for free, I'm also supplying the ammo (and targets, cleaning supplies, etc.). It takes upwards of 100 rounds per Scout, so if it will remain sufficiently accurate with inexpensive ammo, so much the better.

I will note here that I have a personal weakness for stainless steel actions and barrels, so I'm hopeful this model will cut the mustard. I'd prefer to have a wood laminate stock, but that would be asking a lot for a rifle at this price point.

If you have any experience with these rifles, please share. Thanks in advance!
11-21-2018, 10:40 PM
J.Baker

Don't know where you got that math, but a U.S. quarter (0.955" dia.) at 50 yards is just shy of 2 MOA. 6 MOA at 50 yards would be 3 inches.

With that out of the way, I would HIGHLY recommend sticking to the a factory single-shot model (MARK I's) as the mag fed models don't single feed well with or without a single-shot adapter. The only outfit making a single-shot adapter for the magazine fed Mark II's is Lowery's out of Australia and it's just a solid piece of plastic in the shape of a magazine with a narrow and shallow trough in the top. Many have complained that placing the round in the trough isn't always easy given the small port on these rifles. On a dedicated single-shot rifle the whole bottom of the action acts as the trough so you can just drop the round in the action.

Also, does it have to be iron sights or can it be target sights (rear peep/front globe)? If it can be target sights the Mark I FVT is the way to go as it's a single-shot.

It's a shame nobody makes a good affordable single-shot falling block rimfire rifle anymore as that would be the most ideal configuration for your needs.
11-22-2018, 01:09 AM
Wildcat

I have to second Jim's recommendation of the Savage Mark I FVT single shot. I too am an NRA Certified Rifle Instructor and RSO. I chair our local rifle club's youth shooting program based upon the NRA Marksmanship Qualification Program. The club owns 10 right handed and 2 left handed FVTs. We too provide all the rifles, ammunition, targets, and eye and ear protection. Our program is well attended by local Boy and Girl Scouts, Sea Cadets and Civil Air Patrol cadets. We teach all the kids how to shoot using the aperture rear / globe front sights with great success and the rifles seem to fit most of the kids just fine (Ages run from 8-9 to 16-17 both boys and girls). When the kids become advanced enough, we move them off the Mark I FVTs and onto a few older Savage 900 TRs and Anschutz target rifles. The shooting program at the local Boy Scout Camp uses identical Mark I FVT rifles. The rifles see a lot of use and have functioned flawlessly for the most part. The rifles load and feed rounds easily into the chamber. We run a mix of CCI standard and target standard velocity, Aguila super extra and match standard velocity, and Federal champion and training standard velocity ammo all using the 40 grain lead round nose bullet. The rifles have consistently fired and extracted a variety of ammo and the sights have held zero remarkably well. In my experience, when a shooter isn't hitting the bullseye with the Mark I FVT, its because of a sight alignment, site picture, breathing, or trigger technique issue not the rifle.
11-22-2018, 02:28 AM
Robinhood

OP

Quote:

"5) This is the crux of the matter--the Scouts must be able to consistently shoot 5 shot groups that can be covered with a quarter at a distance to the target of 50 feet."

Jim

Quote:

"Don't know where you got that math, but a U.S. quarter (0.955" dia.) at 50 yards is just shy of 2 MOA. 6 MOA at 50 yards would be 3 inches."

This might change things..........
11-22-2018, 03:17 AM
J.Baker

Yeah, that slight oversight would make up the difference. LOL

Getting back to the Q at hand, you might want to contact Vista Outdoor or Savage Arms directly and see if they offer a discount programs for Scouts. I know they were touting this new sponsorship pretty hard last year.

http://www.savageshooters.com/conten...uts-of-America
11-23-2018, 06:18 PM
TNAndy

Not 50 yards, the Scouts shoot at a range of 50 FEET. There's 300 feet in 100 yards where one inch is approximately 1 MOA. 300 divided by 50 is 6. So approximately one inch at 50 feet should be about 6 inches at 300 feet, which is about 6 MOA.

...Right?

ETA: Ah, I see this was already mentioned in a subsequent post.
11-23-2018, 06:25 PM
TNAndy

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.Baker

Yeah, that slight oversight would make up the difference. LOL

Getting back to the Q at hand, you might want to contact Vista Outdoor or Savage Arms directly and see if they offer a discount programs for Scouts. I know they were touting this new sponsorship pretty hard last year.

http://www.savageshooters.com/conten...uts-of-America

Perfect. Thanks!
07-27-2019, 11:11 PM
Gary Jordan

Andy,
this info will probably be too late, but 7 years ago our Scout Council bought 55 Mark I FVT's. We have kept records, and each rifle has fired about 24,000 rounds-mostly Federal and Remington bucket O bullets. Last year I had to replace 5 feed ramps, and a few ejector/extractor arms & clips-this year I sent one rifle to Savage because the bolt would not cock-
they replaced the bolt under warrantee. This year during summer camp, we had a few that had extraction problems-a good chamber cleaning fixed that problem-so after many years
of summer camps, merit badge classes and monthly open shoots, I think they have served us well. I don't know if Savage is still making the Mark I, but I would recommend it.
Gary
12-12-2020, 07:21 PM
TNAndy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Jordan

Andy,
this info will probably be too late, but 7 years ago our Scout Council bought 55 Mark I FVT's. We have kept records, and each rifle has fired about 24,000 rounds-mostly Federal and Remington bucket O bullets. Last year I had to replace 5 feed ramps, and a few ejector/extractor arms & clips-this year I sent one rifle to Savage because the bolt would not cock-
they replaced the bolt under warrantee. This year during summer camp, we had a few that had extraction problems-a good chamber cleaning fixed that problem-so after many years
of summer camps, merit badge classes and monthly open shoots, I think they have served us well. I don't know if Savage is still making the Mark I, but I would recommend it.
Gary

No, not too late. Thanks for your response.

In the two years since I started this thread, one Scouter did donate a larger rifle he was no longer using, but I'm still considering the purchase of one or two more rifles sized for older teenagers.

As an aside, nowadays I only use the low cost Remington bullets until the kids get on paper and start to hit targets in the black. I have seen way too many flyers in these plinking rounds. After they get consistently on paper, I switch them to match grade Federal AM22. When I taught the Merit Badge class two years ago, the Scouts went two hours without a single qualifying target one evening using the Remington cartridges. These same Scouts finished all their qualifying targets within an hour once they were using match grade bullets.

The Remington bullets are great for plinking and for when the range is open for recreational shoots, but it's actually cheaper to use match grade for the Merit Badge because more bullets go where they are aimed, and the Scouts simply use a lot fewer bullets during qualifying.