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Hi guys and gals, just joined the forum as I purchased a Savage 110 Precision Elite in 308 and have a question. I have about 200 rounds shot now and it shoots pretty good but I was wondering if I would get better accuracy and groups if I had my Gunsmith take off the weird brake and machine off the nub and machine an 11 degree target crown on the end? I'm shooting PRS in my Club.
I don't have a Precision Elite.
My experience is with two Savage .308s - LE versions dating back to 2008- (rebarreled by Savage in 2013) and a muzzle brake version from 2013).
Both barrels are the same 24-inch length (one with and one without a muzzle brake).
After lots or shooting at 100 yards with all kinds of ammo, the rifle without muzzle brake averaged 0.419 for 301 groups and the muzzle brake version rifle averaged 0.420 for 373 groups.
Other than ticking off anyone who shot in adjoining lanes, the muzzle brake shoots just the same as the non-muzzle brake version (no measurable difference for a good statistical sample).
Actually, for the best 10 loads and the best 25 loads, the muzzle brake averaged very slightly better, but again there was no statistical difference in performance, especially when you consider shooter induced variations that I may have caused.
My data says you would not see much of a difference.
Thanks for the answer, the reason I asked this question is I put a tuner and brake on to see if I could tighten the groups up from 1.2 to something better and low and behold after 40 rounds and multiple settings the group didn't tighten up so I took everything off and it's back to 1.2. Then I put the Savage break back on and they opened up again. Do you think I need to put more rounds through it for accuracy to increase? Don't understand why they opened up putting on the break, pretty straight forward install.
Are you shooting off the shelf ammo or reloading? Off the shelf, you might see an improvement with no Brake(which you did) If you are reloading, (as CFJunkie does), you can tailor your load to the brake and the difference becomes moot.
If the Savage brake makes the groups open up, then I'd remove it. You can just get a thread protector for it and shoot it that way. Unless the crown is damaged there isn't any reason to redo it. Or, put the tuner back on. If it is a good one it won't hurt anything and doesn't seem to make things worse.
I assume you are shooting factory ammo. My .308 (12BVSS) is very sensitive to ammo, even handloaded. You could try a different weight bullet (if you have not already).
Yes, things could get better over time, but, after 200 rounds it should be there.
If you have not cleaned the copper out of your barrel this might be a good time to do that. Many Savage barrels 'collect' a lot of copper.
Last, you might just have a bad barrel. If nothing you do works then you could call Savage and get a return. They will test shoot it and then make a decision what to do. FWIW, Savage used to use 168gn Federal Gold Medal Match ammo for their .308 testing. If 3 rounds group under an inch they will send it back to you.
Dave is right, I adjust my loads for the change in the reflection caused by the added length of the muzzle brake.
The added length of the muzzle brake changes the harmonics of the barrel, even if the bullet is not touching the muzzle brake as it exits.
That change in harmonics could, and probably would, change the accuracy if you use identical ammo or the same load in both.
I should have explained that.
The muzzle brake itself wouldn't change the potential accuracy of the barrel, but unless the velocity is adjusted to change the exit time and match the harmonics with the muzzle brake, you probably would change the harmonics of the barrel-muzzle brake combination and would change the accuracy.
You might also have seen better accuracy with the muzzle brake if the ammo had been a closer match the harmonics of the barrel + brake than to the barrel alone.
Charlie b is also correct when he points out the sensitivity of individual barrels to bullet weight.
Of my two .308s, one shoots better with match bullets from 155 and 168 grains and the other (with the muzzle-brake) shoots more accurately with match bullets from 175 to 195 grains.
One of my three 6.5mm CMs (with a 24-inch barrel) shoots more accurately with 130 to 140 grain bullets than the other two (with 26-inch barrels) that shoot best with 142 to 147 grain bullets.
All my loads are tuned to the harmonics of each individual barrel, bullet, and caliber, depending upon whether the powder is temperature sensitive or not, also on the temperature that I will be shooting at, usually within about 2 deg F.
I admit I am anal about accuracy, even if I am probably too old to expect much improvement.
Remember, factory ammo is usually loaded close to Pmax - IMO, people buy ammo based on velocity over accuracy - which no manufacturer could hope to match to every barrel anyway.
If your barrel shoots any factory ammo accurately, you probably have a good barrel. All you need to do is find out which bullet and velocity fits your barrel best, with or without a muzzle brake.
All of my rifles shoot my handloads better than factory ammo - usually by at least 0.1 inches at 100 yards with rifles that average 0.4 inches or smaller groups with my hand loads.
My 10 best loads with each rifle usually average 0.05 to 0.1 inches better than the overall average, simply because every barrel has preferences for powders, bullet shapes and bullet weights.
With reference to using the tuner, you are adjusting the harmonics of the barrel to compensate for the muzzle brake. That is the same as adjusting the load.
However, without the muzzle brake, the tuner would have to be readjusted to tune the harmonics to the barrel without the muzzle brake to the same ammo.
It is possible, but not probable, that the ammo could already tuned to the barrel without the muzzle-brake so you wouldn't see any improvement, only degradation, from tuning.
I didn't see whether you adjusted the tuner for both the barrel with and the barrel without the muzzle-brake.
If you did and there was no improvement with the barrel without the tuner, maybe the ammo might have been tuned just about right.
Thanks for all the great advice boys, I'm using Federal Gold Medal Berger 185 Berger OTM factory loads, barrel is spotless, crown is like new so I just put a thread protector on it and it's back to 1 inch groups so I'm just going to leave it at that before I screw something up as I'm just getting into the PRS game and learning so I'll give it a couple of years to learn more and shot more. Thanks again all suggestions are appreciated.
There ya go. Brakes are just DUMB anyway. Certainly not needed for ANY Short Action cartridge! I would use a Brake given I had a RUM, 338 Lapua or something along those lines. Anything under those I don’t get using… except to annoy other shooters.
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Originally Posted by Dave Hoback
I agree 100%.
Even with factory ammo, I would still recommend that you try different bullet weights to see if there is a barrel preference.
Since you have had good results from the FGGM Berger 185s, you might try other FGGM alternatives.
FGGM 175 gr SMK or Nosler CC might show different results and should perform about the same, but one of my .308 shoots the SMKs slightly better than the Nosler CC version.
FGGM 168 gr SMKs shoot better than other factory ammo in my other 308.
I never suspected what the rifles would shoot best until I tried different bullet weights.
Glad it is shooting OK. Like CFJ said, I'd probably try one of the match loads with 168 or 155gn bullets as well just to see if your rifle prefers them. While mine likes 175SMK's the recoil wears on me, so I usually load 155's if I am going to shoot jacketed in it. With the 26in barrel I can still hit at 1000yd. For some reason my barrel does not like the 168's as much.
That's if you can find some other match loads.
Please don't take this the wrong way. When I finally started shooting for small targets I was surprised that I was not up to the challenge. I easily shot expert when in the military so never really thought about it much. I found I could shoot 1" groups but not any better. I thought it was the rifle at first. Then I discovered that it was really me. Took a little bit but I fixed my shooting skills so I could shoot smaller groups. Then I hit a 'limit' at 1/2MOA. Just could not get any lower. This time it took several thousand rounds before I finally got myself 'settled'. I am still not there yet. I still slip up on something small and open up a group. Cheek weld not right, to tight a grip, etc, etc. It becomes a mental game at that level as well. I remember one national champion saying that he practices dry firing in a dark room. Night before a match he sets up and practices pulling the trigger for an hour or so.
Since you are shooting in a club I'd discreetly look around and see if one of the better folks can offer some advice. Probably will be an old 'geezer' :) If you get lucky they'll be willing to share some tips to someone willing to learn.
I'm one of the old geezer's that needs to learn stuff. I'll try a few boxes of different weight bullets with my next pension check and see how they work out. I do get a lot of help from my buddy geezer's just thought I'd see what the Savage community had to say in particular to my rifle. Thanks boy's.
Well… you could try the opposite.. Learn a thing or two from those of us who are just middle age youngsters. I’m 45 & have a 23yo so, so even guys 30 or or below are “kids” to me.
Oh yeah… and I actually happen to know more than the average bear, lol! Seriously, you read & ask questions here & you’ll learn all you need to know.
Your absolutely right and Thanks.
" Except to annoy other shooters ".... What does it say about someone when they bring a rifle with a brake into a shooting bay at a range and are flanked by shooters on each side, knowing what that brake is going to do? I`ve seen it prematurely end more than one shooter`s day. Guess that`s just the way it has to be?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hoback
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Originally Posted by Dave Hoback
Is that a Pennsylvania bear, a honey bear or an idaho bear?
Koala bear:(Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinhood
Yogi bear :rolleyes: