Woops... I Screwed Up... (grab a beer it's a long read)

So the title says it all but let me now go into the details.

I recently became a member of the bolt action community after 12 years of no shooting. I decided to get my feet wet with this rig with the plans of getting a better rifle in the later future:

- Savage Stealth Evolution 300 Win Mag

- Atlas Bipod PRS

- Nightforce 7-35 ATACR with an illuminated

Tremor3 reticle

- Larue scope mount

- Area 419 Hellfire muzzle brake

- MDT V5 Buttstock

I also started reloading for the first time and after doing a ton of research and asking the right questions I average an SD of 7-9. The load that I originally worked up was the following:

Berger Hybrid 215gr

Norma Brass

Fed 210M primer

2.9 OAL (10 off the lands)

72.4gr of H1000

Muzzle velocity was 2860fps

(The node I found was 72.1-72.7)

Lab Radar chronograph used.

I wanted to really focus on the fundamentals of shooting so I never reached out beyond 100 yards. Starting off my groups were 1.5 MOA I went about 10 times if not more just shooting 5 round groups. I made tiny changes to my rifle and shooting style until I was finally shooting pretty consistent 1/2 MOAish (picture 3). I wanted to hit the range 1-2 more times before going to a longer range where I would start to learn to use my scope, reading the environment etc. Before doing so I made the great decision to clean my rifle (this is where is goes south).

SO NOW THE PROBLEMS STARTED...

I come from an infantry background and when your not shooting your cleaning so to not have cleaned my rifle yet was driving my gut crazy. After about 500ish rounds I decided to clean it. At the end of every range day I'd run the bore snake through it a couple times and that's it. Based off of research I went with boretech carbon and copper cleaner. It took forever for me to clean it.

When I went to the range that same load was shooting about 100-120 fps faster giving me pressure signs. The first couple rounds I attributed to possible cleaning solvents that I didn't get out burning but after a few rounds more it was just as fast and I had a primer blow out and I realized something was wrong.

I made another batch of 50 rounds to do load development again starting at the recommended 70.4 and even this load was shooting at 2900fps, 40-50 faster than my previous 72.4 load. I also started to see pressure signs shortly after, probably around 71.2 so I stopped. I had my rifle looked at by a gun Smith who checked for cracks with dyes and made sure everything was in spec which it was fine.

At this point I decided to do load development again and started it at 66.8gr going up by .4 up to 70.4 and this is when I finally started to make progress again. After being able to shoot the entire group of 50 rounds without pressure signs I shot my best 5 round group yet which was 70.0gr and it was shooting 2800-2812 fps (picture 4). I ran my bore snake through it before the barrel fully cooled like I normally do 4-5 times (possible mistake?) and called it a day.

Make note that after I cleaned my rifle, the first attempt at redoing my load development 70.4 was shooting 2890's-2900 and now at the end of this day 70.4 was shooting around 2800-2812

At this point I ran out of bullets but realized that the copper was possibly starting to fill in the imperfections of the barrel causing it to go back to the way it was or at least near it. With this in mind I decided to buy 3 boxes of nosler 180gr accubonds with the intent of fouling the barrel more and to do another 50 rounds 66.8-70.4 and compare it to my previous 50 and see what it does and base my next move on the data gathered. This theory was short lived as I started to have pressure signs with the factory ammo right away including blowing primers. The bullets were shooting about 150-200 fps faster than the boxes said they should.

I spoke to someone locally who said a lot of the ELR don't clean there rifles at all and If they do it's very rare and very mild and dont use copper cleaner so I decided to turn to you ELR guys/gals for some guidance.

So with all this being said... I've found myself moderately confused, mostly aggravated and entirely lost with my next best course or action. These are now my questions I have that I haven't been able to find through research...

1. Should i be running a bore snake through my rifle at the end of each range day?

2. Did i ruin my barrel?

3. Has anyone experienced this behavior from their rifle after a vigorous cleaning and if so how did ur story turn out.

4. What cleaning methods do you recommend. (I know this is a very subjective question with no right answer but I'm still curious to see if there is a trend among you ELR shooters)

I don't want to waste ammo and brass life if the barrel is trashed. I also want to learn from this and maybe educate someone else who reads this to prevent then from making the same mistake. Any input is welcomed.

As of right now, if no one gave me input I would make a couple loads at 70.0 go to the range and see If they are still shooting around 2800fps or if it jumped back up to 2900 from the bore snake being ran through. If it was 2800s I'd call it a day and make that my new load until something changes. If it was fast again around 2900 I'd run 50 rounds of 66.8 through it, or do load dev starting at 66.8 again to see If it slows down again.

Thanks for taking the time to read this, hope you enjoyed your beer(s).https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...6c0ac6848b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...aa19032957.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...da212756bc.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...eff63dea0e.jpg

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Savages' like to run dirty. Maybe clean to remove carbon and leave the copper alone. Or rebarrel.

Your turn Coop, you better grab two…

Welcome back to the (shooting) world. I also sadly and inextricably inflicted an even longer hiatus on myself, but I am thankfully now solidly back on the ‘Shooter’s Path”.

Congrats on your Savage Stealth Evolution 300 Win Mag, it looks nicely set up, and appears capable of producing some nice groups. We just bought the short action ‘10’ version in 6.5 Creedmoor. Like you we ditched the Magpul PRS3 stock and went with the MDT V5 too, ours is in the short version because we got it with the folding adaptor. We will get to shoot ours as soon as work, and weather permit. We don’t have a range (or cleaning) report for ours yet.

I will be starting to reload for the first time too, so it seems we both are in similar territory, and it makes me very interested in the outcome of your dilemma.

With an average SD of 7-9 it seems like you found a pretty good node. The Berger Hybrid 215gr and H1000 are claimed to be ideal for the 300WM. H1000 is temperature stable and it meters ok. 2860fps is a pretty reasonable velocity and a jump of 40-50 to 2900 shouldn’t be an issue in a 300 Win Mag or be very deviant depending on the cause. Some folks even push the 215s with more than 75gr of H1000 at 3000fps or better… your 2900 at 70.4gr? Well that is just downright thrifty…

Just kidding. I understand your concern about over-spec pressure, it can really be very dangerous. It seems that the velocities you are talking about are within the ‘reasonable range’ for a 300 Win Mag. However, that 100-120fps jump you got is crazy. That took quite a pressure spike to cause that big of a velocity jump with only that amount of powder. I would expect even Norma Brass to be a little loose in the pockets from it. Norma is not soft brass by reputation, though everybody does make a bad lot occasionally… That you dropped a primer clearly indicates a ‘over pressure spiking’ condition, especially coupled to the fact that the factory load was doing it too.

What is causing the over pressure spike with only 70.4gr of H1000 and the factory rounds, that is what makes one scratch the head. At least the factory loaded ammo pressure spiking too seems to eliminate a few possibilities for you; like the powder, metering, temperature sensitivity, primers, brass etc…

What you are left with is a barrel, a bolt, heat, and cleaning. If the more you shoot it, the more the velocity (eventually) drops we can eliminate heat causing the spike. The barrel and bolt don’t change they are pretty much a constant, so it doesn’t appear to be them. We are left with is cleaning, which actually was what seemed to have started this anomaly.

This whole cleaning issue/break in procedure is Voo-Doo/Black Magic to me. World class shooters can’t even seem to agree on a methodology that would place it in the scientific realm. To me, like you, 500 rounds to a cleaning seems a bit much. 150-300 is probably what I will try to settle on once the break-in period is over; but then it will always depend on the rifle, and what it ‘likes’. When it’s groups start to open up, I guess I will have to do more than snake it.

Out of curiosity I wonder, did your smith give you a video of the barrel’s bore when he checked it and pronounced the rifle fit? The reason I ask is that you mentioned that it took you forever to clean it. It might be worth fire lapping it with Tubbs. Factory Savage bores can be shall we say a little on the rough side, or at least that’s what I hear. This is my first one, so I am on unknown ground there as far as personal knowledge goes. I don’t really think that it’s the cause of your issue, more of just a side note.

More likely, since it seems that it’s the cleaning that is the common denominator, is that residual solvent or oil accumulation is your culprit. You mentioned that this rifle is your first real foray into the bolt action side of the game, and that you were also in the infantry. Obviously, you are used to semi-auto/select fire weapons. With those it doesn’t matter if they are dripping wet so long as the bore is dry. Bolt Actions are a different creature altogether.

With BAs, when cleaning the bore it’s best to use a bore guide that seals the chamber when you’re cleaning the bore. It will keep solvent/oil from dripping into the chamber and beyond. You mentioned this yourself as a possibility:

“When I went to the range that same load was shooting about 100-120 fps faster giving me pressure signs. The first couple rounds I attributed to possible cleaning solvents that I didn't get out burning but after a few rounds more it was just as fast and I had a primer blow out and I realized something was wrong.”

I think it is worth considering that perhaps it was taking more than a few rounds to clear out the accumulation of oil/solvent from the chamber, bolt and action because it wasn’t burning it was just causing a pressure spike the same as water would in the chamber/bolt/action. Why I think it is this, is your statement:

“Make note that after I cleaned my rifle, the first attempt at redoing my load development 70.4 was shooting 2890's-2900 and now at the end of this day 70.4 was shooting around 2800-2812”

Because the problem disappeared with rounds fired/time, so either it was counter intuitively fouling your bore that caused the pressure spike to fade, or the oil/solvent was gradually dissipated. Since we are pretty sure it wasn’t fouling doing it… I would go with solvent/oil intrusion.

To answer your questions, as a non-expert BTW…

1. Should i be running a bore snake through my rifle at the end of each range day?

~ I do, but I don’t do it hot though. I don’t really think it would hurt it. I have heard of people wrapping barrels in wet towels, and even pouring cold water down the bore to cool the barrel in a pinch at matches. I wouldn’t do it as normal thing myself, mostly because I don’t like to get my barrels very hot, but I often snake them warm… ~

2. Did i ruin my barrel?

~ I don’t think so. I sure would check the throat though. Sounds like you were pouring the coals to it. Heat + Pressure = Throat Erosion~

3. Has anyone experienced this behavior from their rifle after a vigorous cleaning and if so how did ur story turn out.

~ No I have not, and I want to know the cause here too~

4. What cleaning methods do you recommend. (I know this is a very subjective question with no right answer but I'm still curious to see if there is a trend among you ELR shooters)

~ I am a newbie to the ELR game too, but I bought a Dewey Bolt Action Chamber Cleaning Kit and a Possum Hollow Bore Guide #4 especially for this rifle. Haven’t used them yet so I don’t know how well they work. As I said, I will learn what the rifle likes and clean it accordingly. I may get a chamber plug too so I can soak the barrel over night if it turns out to be a tough cleaner, and subsequent fire lapping with Tubbs doesn’t fix it. For us this barrel is a Learner/Burner Barrel, we are saving up for better ones.


That’s my best 2 cents. Sorry it took so many words to get there…

Carbon ring maybe?

Snagged this info from another forum...

Quote:

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Picture this in your mind's eye: The cartridge gets inserted into the chamber area. The end of the case mouth ALMOST comes in contact with the "end of the chamber / beginning of the leade of the lands. This "gap" if you will, which is necessary, is an area where the carbon builds up upon firing. If not removed after every round of fire>>>say about 100 with a day's matches or 2 hundred after 2 days, that carbon begins to build and build up rapidly. Before very long, you actually end up with a "barrier" higher than the chamber neck walls and it will take FORCE to push a bullet past it to close the bolt. This will drive pressures up immensely and ruin accuracy.

What I do to keep this problem from happening in the first place is after I use my bronze brush to loosen up the "fouling carbon" in the barrel, I push out the loose stuff first. Then I take an Iosso "Blue Brush", along with Bore-Tech Eliminator and stick it into the neck of the chamber and a bit into the lands. Then I take my hands and "spin" the brush with about 25 turns. Then I short-stroke the neck and about the first 6 inches or barrel and let it soak for awhile>>>>every 10-15 minutes I "spin" the brush and short stroke with the brush, flush with Eliminator. After about 1/2 hour to 45 mins, I spin the brush again in that neck area, scrub out the first 6 inches and push a patch thru. This will keep you from ever getting a "carbon ring"..

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Top end engine cleaner works great for loosening up stubborn carbon deposits as that's specifically what it's designed to do on valves and piston tops.

Good stuff gents. I formerly would leave a lubricant/rust preventative in the bore for storage. Once I forgot to dry patch before shooting. That barrel, a Criterion never shot the same. I imagine the projectile plowing through the rifling coated with said petroleum product, creating a puddle of hydraulic fluids attempting to stay on the front side of the bullet. All it takes is a little hydroplane and the barrel buldges slightly...Is this what happened? Don't know, but the drop in scores that never improved tells me something happened.

308 bull for F/TR, 766 rounds prior to the fall off of accuracy. Was a .65 MOA shooter at 600 on great days when new. 1.00 + after.

Thanks for all the replies.

Regarding the pressures my actual load was 72.4gr which was reaching (normal) 2850-2860. After cleaning that same load was consistently 2950-2970. When I dropped down to 70.4 it was still higher than my original load .



I made this same post on long range only and the two theories that are consistent with you guys and them is concerns for the throat and a carbon ring. I'm going to iosso the chamber as per a re commendation from a reputable member and see If this does the trick. I'm very happy with it otherwise and will eventually turn to a criterion barrel when it's time.


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Since you had good groups in Pic#4 before the 100-200 fps jump with the factory ammo your barrel might be alright unless there was fluid in it. If there was, then the damage would manifest as pitting. The throat is another story, it may be damaged, though possibly you can clean it up.

This conundrum of yours has me looking for something to use with my phone to scope my chambers and barrels. Is it a carbon ring? How is the throat? Is the barrel pitted? If I stumble across anything I will post it back here.

I found the article where I first read about fluids in actions and barrels and took notes from. I just reread it and there was more there that I can understand now that I have learned more. It was well worth rereading, for me at least.

Let us know how this turns out for you, it’s a bit of a stumper.

https://www.primalrights.com/library...nding-pressure

I found a wireless Wireless Endoscope/Borescope. The Camera is 5.5mm outside diameter made by DEPSTECH. It cost me 36.99 on Amazon... Ultra Thin 5.5mm WiFi Borescope, Extreme Long 5h Working Time, Semi-Rigid Snake Inspection Camera with 2200 mAh Battery for iOS & Android Smart Phone & Tablets(16.5ft).

http://Link is: https://www.amazon.c...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

So far it seems to be ok here are a few pics from my dirty 6.5CM Stealth Evolution. (25 rounds fired so far.) Here are few sample photos from my look/see today...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1N26...ew?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iaP...ew?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1n7fqtM5Y1jazZOg8V7vNZXlU1Wp5_2jr/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JSA...ew?usp=sharing

It would be better if it focused closer in. This one shows what I mean pretty well even though you can clearly see the copper fouling I still want to see whats right in front of the camerea more clearly. I think it might work well enough to help the OP out if he hasn't figured out how his Chamber-Throat-Barrel held up.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/17ZT-UlEKJdEg-q1mLfc1JgeCabaOG0tb/view?usp=sharing

Quote:

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Originally Posted by earlytom

I found a wireless Wireless Endoscope/Borescope. The Camera is 5.5mm outside diameter made by DEPSTECH. It cost me 36.99 on Amazon... Ultra Thin 5.5mm WiFi Borescope, Extreme Long 5h Working Time, Semi-Rigid Snake Inspection Camera with 2200 mAh Battery for iOS & Android Smart Phone & Tablets(16.5ft).

http://Link is: https://www.amazon.c...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

So far it seems to be ok here are a few pics from my dirty 6.5CM Stealth Evolution. (25 rounds fired so far.) Here are few sample photos from my look/see today...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1N26...ew?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iaP...ew?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1n7fqtM5Y1jazZOg8V7vNZXlU1Wp5_2jr/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JSA...ew?usp=sharing

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That is crazy I remember spending over 600 for a 5.5 camera from SnapOn years ago. And now you can get them for 40 on amazon with wifi, better graphics, and ability to take pictures.

Those cheap Amazon and Ebay endoscopes are all but worthless for looking at a rifle bore because they don't offer enough magnification, they look straight forward rather than a 90* angle, and they aren't focused up close like they need to be. If you don't want to spend the big bucks for a Hawkeye borescope, at least do yourself the favor of buying a Lyman Digital BoreCam that will actually show you enough detail at a high enough magnification to be useful.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J.Baker

Those cheap Amazon and Ebay endoscopes are all but worthless for looking at a rifle bore because they don't offer enough magnification, they look straight forward rather than a 90* angle, and they aren't focused up close like they need to be. If you don't want to spend the big bucks for a Hawkeye borescope, at least do yourself the favor of buying a Lyman Digital BoreCam that will actually show you enough detail at a high enough magnification to be useful.

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Yep with regard to needing the 90 degrees and close up focus you are right on Target Mr. Baker.

No worries, I will buy something good someday... but if the truth be told, $14,000 for a HAWKEYE- V2 VIDEO BORESCOPE probably ain't never happening LOL; and I thought the $208 for the LYMAN was out of my range for something I don't really need yet...

Truth is I had a hard time deciding to spring for this, I am still trying to get the reloading side of this hobby up and running; and as I know you know, it is always buy this, then buy that. Then there is always the next barrel... By the time I get around to the point where I will be willing to spend for a really good one, the technology will hopefully be even better and cheaper still. It certainly was this time from when I looked the last time at this type of stuff for work over a year ago.

As for work it sure would have helped us about two weeks ago looking for a damaged wire in conduit. It was on a 480 AMP circuit that wouldn't trip out until loaded. We figured if it was a wire issue it would trip instantly with that kind of amperage, but it wouldn't trip with just current. So instead we spent a whole lot of time troubleshooting the equipment before we finally gave up and went to get wire. We came back on day two and pulled out all the wiring to see if any of it was damaged knowing we would have to replace it all anyways once we pulled it out. Sure enough, there was water just like we were sure there was, and quite a bit of damage too, but the phases just never arced until it was loaded. Crazy right?

Well that incident got my cheap ass to spring for this unit. Because as a tool its so cheap that if it dies the company can just bill it to the job as a consumable, and it is (theoretically) waterproof to boot.

In fact it is so cheap that I am even willing to use it to look down water filled conduit, and drains, and even in a engine or gear box without even a care, just because I can expense it. Of course the first thing I did when I got it was shove it up and down our Savage BA S.E.'s bore, and when I get more time I am going to do it to a whole closet of em lol.

Anyways I can see the throat with this POS, that is if I look from far enough back in the chamber and right now that is good enough. Though I know you are right, someday it won't be...

There is a whole lot that one of those cheap endoscope camera will reveal. No you can't look at the lands and grooves in minute detail, but you can see carbon rings, copper build up, throat erosion, wet or rusty chamber, etc.

One trick is to slide a cleaning rod down the muzzle end with camera in the neck/throat. Moving the cleaning rod back and forth towards the camera light, you can use the reflection off the cleaning rod to reveal bore condition and lead wear.

The typical inexpensive endoscope camera has a focal length of 25 mm, and as Baker wrote it's hard to get up close and keep it in focus, but there are other camera's that will focus closer. You just have to look for them, and they tend to be more expensive. Nevertheless, having a cheap one is far and away better than having nothing at all.

I've been using the Snap-On BK5500 for several years and recently bought the wireless one mentioned above. My BK5500 unit focuses closer but lacks the ability to easily take a photo, although the newer ones are wireless too. Both have their place in the tool box alongside a purpose built borescope for smaller field of view work.