Confused about ogive...need help

I am still fairly new to reloading, and thought I had a handle on ogive, but I guess not...

Background: Savage 11/111 Trophy Hunter XP in .223, Nosler 69gr CC bullets. The brass I normally use is being tumbled, so I used some Federal American Eagle brass that I have resized and fired a couple times in my AR. I full length sized the brass and it is a little shorter than trim to. I grouped it by length, and ended up loading a group of 1.746 length.

I used a Hornady OAL tool and measured with a ogive tool to 1.971. I decided to load 3 4-shot groups at ogive length 1.941, and 3 4-shot groups at ogive length 1.891. When I got to the range, many of the rounds would not chamber in my gun. Many of the 1st batch were 1.941 - 1.943. However, 4 of the rounds were 1.939. Of those 4, 2 would chamber and 2 would not. In the other group, I grabbed 2 rounds and both measured ogive of 1.889. Again, one will chamber and one will not.

I am thoroughly perplexed by this. What could be causing this? How can I have a round chamber, and another round with the shorter ogive length not chamber?

The brass needs to be resized. The bullet should not prevent the cart from chambering. If the bullet is seated in the case too long it will either get pushed deeper into the case by the rifling or it will simply push into the lands or both.

To confirm whether the brass needs full length resizing or , at least, shoulder bumped back, try chambering the brass without a bullet in it and see if it will or not. My guess is the bullet is not the issue.

Also, "ogive" is not a concept to be understood. It is simply the part of the bullet that is larger than the taper near the tip that you use to measure length of your seating from.. You measure it with a tool like a donut that will allow the tip to pass through and stop at a constant dimension (the inside diameter of your "donut tool") so that you don't try to measure from the tip of the bullet. The tip is easily deformed and rarely consistant in it's overall length. It is important to understand that your tool for measuring from the "ogive" will likely give a diferent result than my tool will because they are not constant or fixed dimensions from tool to tool. You just want to be sure to always use the same tool so you are measuring from a consistent point.

I reread your OP. It sounds like you did FL resize before trying to load. If you did so, I would think you might need to anneal your brass and resize again.

Other than that, I got nothin'.

one never goes to the range befor checking to see if the ammo will
work in the rifle..Geesh...Are you using the correct bullet
according to your loading manual ?Don't give up...

Do you think the shape of the bullet is going to remain the same when switching brands and weights and are still going to adhere to your measured bullet or did you not change from that bullet as I suspect you might have ? If you do not try to keep the same length,the bullets Will vary to wherever from where the bullet seater contacts on the bullets during the seating process. The seater does not know where it has to be set at in order for the bullet not to touch the lands,it just seats them wherever you set it at. Does this make sense ?

Ace - lesson learned the hard way on that one.

Foxx - you seemed to nail it. I pulled a bullet and sure enough the brass does not fit. Any ideas why the full length resize did not work properly on some of the brass?

I have the ogive comparator "donut tool" on my calipers, so I think that the ogive length of my loads would have worked.

So here is my plan, tell me if there are flaws in my thinking.
- I am going to pull the bullets and powder, and use this brass in my AR (the gun it was last shot out of). Do I need to do another FL resize on them?
- I shot some factory rounds from my Savage bolt action, and am going to neck size that brass and go back to my original plan of 1 load (24.0 gr of H4895) with 2 different lengths based on the ogive.

icker96. I think you are on the right track. Determine problems with the brass first.
Couple of my thoughts: (don't be offended if them seem to simplistic).
1. ARs have slightly oversize chambers compared to a bolt rifle. Thus the AR 'might' be expanding the brass more, in certain areas.
2. are your dies adjusted properly? What brand / type? A Lee Collet die doesn't size the body.....
3. Dillon sells an inexpensive 'go / no' guage that should tell you a lot.
4. have you tried seating a dummy round to see how far the bullet is off the lands of the bbl?
Lastly, (and off topic, kinda). Using a mic and measuring from bullet tip to base, does not take into account the shape of the ogive of that particular bullet. Google "ogive" and you will see the different shapes.
Just thoughts from an 'ole Gunner's Mate.

ron

I went through the same problem with my 25-06.
http://www.savageshooters.com/showth...ll-not-chamber

Hopefully it linked my thread...

One other thing. You said Federal brass??? Fed is just a little thicker than most brass. Found that in my .243 I had the same problem. Win., RP, Hornady all work fine. Fed gives me a problem. As previously stated check the shoulder & bump it back if necessary.


BW

The brass I'm using is from cheapo Federal American Eagle .223 ammo. It has been reloaded 3 times, each time has been a full length resize. Before this it was always fired in my AR.

I'm using the Lee FL resized, screwing it to touch the shell plate and backing off ~1/4 turn. I originally measured to the lands by seating a bullet long in an empty cartridge, and closing the bolt, then measuring OAL. This time I used a OAL gauge and a Hornady ogive comparator.

When resizing brass that is only fired from my bolt rifle, I use the Lee collet neck sizing die. I usually use Remington brass for this, and I never use that brass in any other gun. That way, I know any brass with the RP head stamp is only fired through the bolt gun

After doing so e investigating, the difference between hose that chambered and those that did not was shoulder dimension. Seemed that the ones that did not chamber had a shoulder that had been compressed (it looked shorter and fatter). I assume that has to do with how I set my dies. Would that indicate I need to back off a little more than 1:4 turn?

Are you using your seating die to crimp? You may have to back the seating die out and run the spindle back down. Even if you have no intention of crimping, you may be bumping the the inside of the die when seating a bullet. Too much pressure into the crimp portion of the die will pressure the shoulder causing distortion.

I'm using the Lee seating die, and that is putting a all crimp. I don't need a crimp on these, so if I understand you correctly I back the die off a bit so that it does not hit the brass. Then I can still adjust seating depth using the spindle. This will give me no crimp, and will not apply any extra pressure to the shoulder. Then, any cartridges I want crimped, I simply use the Lee factory crimp die

Quote:

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Originally Posted by justdave

You may have to back the seating die out and run the spindle back down. Even if you have no intention of crimping, you may be bumping the the inside of the die when seating a bullet.

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I think you're right Dave and if the neck lengths varied it could be why some wouldn't chamber, those with slightly longer necks were/are bottoming out in the seating die and collapsing the shoulders

Bill

Quote:

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Originally Posted by icker96

I'm using the Lee seating die, and that is putting a all crimp. I don't need a crimp on these, so if I understand you correctly I back the die off a bit so that it does not hit the brass. Then I can still adjust seating depth using the spindle. This will give me no crimp, and will not apply any extra pressure to the shoulder. Then, any cartridges I want crimped, I simply use the Lee factory crimp die

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It's worth looking into. It wouldn't take much variation in length to cause a bit of crush on the shoulder of some cases.

By the way. Thank you everyone for all of the great information. I have read numerous reloading manuals and books, but this type of knowledge from experienced reloaders is invaluable

My father in law built a big lot of .308 plagued with the same problem, we tracked it down to the crimp with too much variation in case length. Hope you find your trouble.

The problem may be when you are resizing. If you don't use some inside the neck powder, then the FL die can pull the shoulder back out, & mess up the FL sizing you are doing. I find it best to tumble them first then resize, then the interior of the neck is cleaner and does not hang as the press is brought out of the case.

thanks,
Deerandduck

In the interest of not wasting time, I always make sure resized brass will chamber before reloading.

I don't believe the AR platform was ever designed with the intention of reloading the brass that went through it. Certainly it can be done, but it may require additional steps to get it to perform properly in another rifle. Brass fired in another rifle is the same as range brass, and IMHO, may require the use of a small base resizing die. To me, this extra time and expense can only be justified by the use of range brass in volume.

Do you shoot so much through your bolt gun that you can not have brass dedicated for its chamber?

All of this is good experience, and there is knowledge to be gained from solving these problems.

Good luck, hope you get to the bottom of it & let us know!.....Thanks!...Jim :-))

After reading this entire thread several times, I think justdave and BillPA nailed the cause of the OP's issue being collapsed shoulders resulting from improper adjustment of the seater die. Been there, done that!!! One can also collapse shoulders with the Lee collet die...been there too!!

An easy way to check the seater die adjustment is put a sized case in the shell holder and run the ram all the way up. The install the seater die and turn it down until you feel it touch the case mouth. Then back the die off, maybe a half turn, and lock it.

FWIW: I have loaded more than 5000 rounds of 223 for AR's in the last two years without crimping bullets, and without any issues.

I'm using the Lee FL resized, screwing it to touch the shell plate and backing off ~1/4 turn.

I think this might be the problem. You are not full length sizing if you back the die off 1/4 turn. This does not bump the shoulder back to original length on the fired case. You are neck sizing. When I full length size, I screw the die in to touch the shell holder, then screw it down about 1/8 turn. This makes my RCBS press cam over slightly and gives the extra .001 shoulder bump.

Will try these last 2 suggestions next time.
Also, I fired off 50 rounds of factory ammo in this gun last trip. That gives me 2 sets of brass dedicated to this rifle that I can neck size.