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Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Ok, so here is what we have and yes I decided to post pictures this time because everybody thought I was trying to hide something. Or sell some sort of snake oil.
First is a thrust bearing:
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Firearms%20related/IMG_2565.jpg[/img]
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Firearms%20related/IMG_2566.jpg[/img]
It goes between the BAS and the cocking sleeve. This is an off the shelf part, nothing special that anyone can get for nearly nothing and yes they will sell individual bearings, no bulk ordering.
The lower part of the thrust bearing sits on top of the cocking sleeve:
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Firearms%20related/IMG_2567.jpg[/img]
Next goes in the actual bearing and on top of this is the other part of the bearing:
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Firearms%20related/IMG_2568.jpg[/img]
And finally the other part of the bearing:
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Firearms%20related/IMG_2571.jpg[/img]
Here is a picture of a spacer that is on the BAS to make up the difference of the thickness of the bearing assembly:
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Firearms%20related/IMG_2572.jpg[/img]
Then screw it all down.
As you can see the spacer and the bearing are within .01" of each other:
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Firearms%20related/IMG_2569.jpg[/img]
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Firearms%20related/IMG_2570.jpg[/img]
If you are worried about .01" then have the difference made up with your spacer when you have it made.
It is a little lighter and definitely smoothed the bolt lift out. No need to machine anything off the BAS or cocking sleeve as long as you use a spacer under the BAS. The spacer is not an off the shelf part, it was something I had a machinist make for me. Any machinist could duplicate it without much fuss. No clipping of springs, or any of the other stuff I was accused of advocating.
If anyone thinks of anything that might help please feel free to let me know, otherwise enjoy. As soon as the “powers” that be give their blessings I’ll post the link to the bearing so anyone can order one. I just don’t want to post anything that might turn this one into a shit storm like the last thread.
Dolomite
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Why not just shorten up the BAS and get rid of that ugly spacer. You can purchase BAS from Savage for $5.00 a piece. Have them shortened by .195 and do a trade in on the screw.
So, checking rotation torque before and after, what are the results?
Number of fireamrs tested on?
No bass masters measurements this time!!
Looks fairly labor intensive to just give away.
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Very clear instuctive pix. Thanks.
One question, what is the purpose of the second washer? Why not let the bearing unit ride directly on the BAS? Then the spacer could be thinner.
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
The spacer is all I will probably be giving away now. The bearings put it over the $ mark for me to just to throw money away to people I don't know. I may still toss some bearings and spacers out there but no where near what I had planned.
The bearings are less than $2 + shipping which ran $4.50 with a bunch of other stuff on the order so it may be cheaper than that for individual ones.
Again this is all contingent on the "powers" that be. I'm sure they will be chimming in here shortly.
Dolomite
Quote:
Why not let the bearing unit ride directly on the BAS? Then the spacer could be thinner.
My BAS isn't as smooth as the other side of the bearing.
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Nice engineering. I can't possibly see how this could have less drag than the .38spl./ball bearing method whatsoever since the point of contact is directly in the center (on the .38spl.) and there is 5/6th of the contact area.
edit.....I'd say that your 'clipped spring' was what did this idea in.
There is honestly no insult intended in this post. Keep on trying to do better.
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Still say wish I had your "get up and go" Dolomite, because I'm not near "Disabled" as you. I think you know what I mean. Stay well, Dale ;)
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
i like these comments im waiting for one soon.
bob
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Well Dolomite, you sure as he2sticks impressed this old mechanical engineer. The whole project seems well thuoght out. I cannot see anything the least bit dangerous. But then again, my old eyes arnt what they never were.
El Lobo
PS: the Dolomites are a mt. range in Italy arnt they?
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellobo
PS: the Dolomites are a mt. range in Italy arnt they?
That and a mineral found in granite as well as a famous character from a blaxploitation film of the 70's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolemite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaxploitation
Dolomite
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Nice Work!!! I'm definitely interested in trying out this kit!
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
+1 on being impressed! I'm no engineer, but seems like you've eliminated friction between two stationary parts by inserting the rolling balls. Anybody who's moved a gun safe on pipe rollers knows the principle works. Nice bit of work! Hope to see the link for the bearing soon.
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Ok, how many times are we (the staff) going to have to nip this in the bud? The fact you sent a letter out via certified mail verifies you acknowledge the potential danger associated with this "kit", yet you continue to try to get people to take the risk of trying it? WTF?
Obviously telling you this is a bad idea and locking/removing the previous threads wasn't enough.
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Ok, looking over all this again I'm man enough to admit I initially misunderstood this kit. This kit "should" be reasonably safe and eliminate the ignition issues of the previous kit, but I still question why it's even needed. With 5 ball bearings it has 5-times the contact area of the .38SP case mod that's been around for awhile, and as we all know more contact area = more friction = harder bolt lift. You'll also still need to shorten the BAS accordingly the same as you would the 38SP case mod, so where's the benefit?
Reinventing the wheel?
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
I could see where there would be less, or at least similar amount of friction between the two. The bearing in the 38 case drags and on end of the BAS. The only friction on this newer one is the rolling resistance of the 5 bearings. There isn't much to slow or drag on the 5 bearings.
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
You Guy's with the older actions have a choice.
Us guy's with the newer actions (cocking indicator) Finally have one choice.
Ain't No Stinkin .38 Kit's For us.......
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFurious
Ok, looking over all this again I'm man enough to admit I initially misunderstood this kit. This kit "should" be reasonably safe and eliminate the ignition issues of the previous kit, but I still question why it's even needed. With 5 ball bearings it has 5-times the contact area of the .38SP case mod that's been around for awhile, and as we all know more contact area = more friction = harder bolt lift. You'll also still need to shorten the BAS accordingly the same as you would the 38SP case mod, so where's the benefit?
Reinventing the wheel?
I really appreciate this.
As for the letter he posted. it was for the previous WASHER ONLY test group I sent out. I admitted in this thread there was a valid concern with it and I sent these letters out to make sure no one continued to use the WASHER ONLY setup for the reasons mentioned.
As Mr Furious said "This kit "should" be reasonably safe and eliminate the ignition issues of the previous kit," the previous kit he is talking about is the one in the linked thread.
As far as whether it is better than the 38 special versions, who knows. I don't do this to try to show people up but I do have my own personal reasons for doing it. A helicopter accident in 2008 did me in. So when I am having a "good" day I do little projects like this to forget about life for a while. All the activity involved in taking pictures today and such is going to cost me a few "good" days. I really don't mind because if I didn't do things like this I would just sit around and probably hate life.
I welcome opinions but please no name calling
Dolomite
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Good on you Dolomite. Keep hanging in there! You have a very positive attitude. Don't let nay sayers get to you.
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
I'm a total "Newb" to Boltguns & Savages in general, But I've noticed you've taken the time to respond to several of my posts with helpful info & advice. Thank you for that and for sharing your ingenuity. Just my 2 cents...... ;)
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
The balls in the thrust bearing rotate so there is no 5x the friction. Tell me how much testing was done with the original.357 case design before it was declared safe? And who did the testing, and how far away from the action was the tester? Was it done with a clamped down rifle and trigge pulled with a string? I havnt heard anything about any testing of that particular design but it is presumed safe by eveyone. There are test methods like the clamp and string that could be done with Supafly's design. After looking over how it is put together I visualy see no safety issues, but I dont think it could hurt to have proper tests run to see if it is safe and if it really does give better bolt lift, which is a really lousy Savage problem which I have currently on my 7x57 build along with a three screw trigger that when adjusted to its best is still marginal.
Those who are currently testing the thrust washer design should take all due precautions when using it untill it is proven safe. Dolomite my friend, you should have done all the testing yourself and over a long period of time before getting anyone else involved and then having them use safe measure like clamp and string.
El Lobo
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellobo
The balls in the thrust bearing rotate so there is no 5x the friction. Tell me how much testing was done with the original.357 case design before it was declared safe? And who did the testing, and how far away from the action was the tester? Was it done with a clamped down rifle and trigge pulled with a string? I havnt heard anything about any testing of that particular design but it is presumed safe by eveyone. There are test methods like the clamp and string that could be done with Supafly's design. After looking over how it is put together I visualy see no safety issues, but I dont think it could hurt to have proper tests run to see if it is safe and if it really does give better bolt lift, which is a really lousy Savage problem which I have currently on my 7x57 build along with a three screw trigger that when adjusted to its best is still marginal.
Those who are currently testing the thrust washer design should take all due precautions when using it untill it is proven safe. Dolomite my friend, you should have done all the testing yourself and over a long period of time before getting anyone else involved and then having them use safe measure like clamp and string.
El Lobo
I agree with you in theory, but seeing that the bolt lug's prevent nasty things from happening and they are fully engaged, I don't see a problem.
BUT...I could be wrong.
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
It is impossible to rate this kit without comparing it to the 38/357 case kit. Both are designed to reduce friction between the BAS and the cocking piece sleeve and that is all they do. The friction between the 38/357 case kit single ball bearing and the BAS is EXTREMELY LOW. The friction is so low the bearing does not need to rotate. It is a very hard steel ball that remains smooth while it barely seats into the BAS. It might take about 1/10 of an inch pound to turn.
The two washer and 6 ball kit cannot possibly be any easier to rotate than the 38/357 case kit. Even if it was twice as easy, how would you ever tell?
The separate spacer to go between the BAS and the handle must be fabricated. It is just easier to shorten the BAS.
If a person wants to improve bolt lift further, study the cocking piece pin. The cocking piece pin rubs on the cocking piece, the sleeve, the bolt body and the action. It also rubs on the sear but that isn't what we are discussing here. A 1 piece dual roller cocking piece pin would be a big improvement.
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
The biggest reason for the spacer is that I generally do not like to do things that are not reversable to firearms. I know that most Savages aren't collectors items but over the years I have seen people do some pretty nasty things done to what would be collector firearms. Because of this anything I do to any firearm I try not to make it permanent. Yeah, for most people it would be easier just to shorten the BAS but I, personanlly, do not like to do things like that. And if I do I make sure I am 100% positive sure it will work after the modification.
ellobo,
No one is involed in the testing of this idea. I just threw it up here for all to see what I did. I got hammered for asking peole to test a previous design before posting it so from now on I am not going to ask anyone to test anything for me. People can do waht they want with what I have posted but I am not going to be a party to it anymore.
As I said before everyone here is an adult and are quite capable of making your own judgements and taking their own precautions.
Dolomite
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Quote:
Originally Posted by dolomite_supafly
The biggest reason for the spacer is that I generally do not like to do things that are not reversable to firearms. I know that most Savages aren't collectors items but over the years I have seen people do some pretty nasty things done to what would be collector firearms. Because of this anything I do to any firearm I try not to make it permanent. Yeah, for most people it would be easier just to shorten the BAS but I, personanlly, do not like to do things like that. And if I do I make sure I am 100% positive sure it will work after the modification.
ellobo,
No one is involed in the testing of this idea. I just threw it up here for all to see what I did. I got hammered for asking peole to test a previous design before posting it so from now on I am not going to ask anyone to test anything for me. People can do waht they want with what I have posted but I am not going to be a party to it anymore.
As I said before everyone here is an adult and are quite capable of making your own judgements and taking their own precautions.
Dolomite
Gentlemen the man is trying to help all of us. Instead of giving him crap and shooting it down if you don't like it just keep your mouth shut and move along. He is not hurting you in any way and those of us that would like to try this are very appreciative of his time and effort.
Thanks Dolomite,
Merritt
SGT USMC vet.