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Forgive the lame humor...but I have a headspacing question. Mr. Briggs will soon be shipping me a few barrels, one of which is a .338 Win Mag. My re-barreling experience is limited, and totally nil on a belted cartridge, so my question is this: go or no-go?...if a guy didn't have a Lapua brass to use.
I guess you already know the belted cases head space off the belt so for your first time around I would just get a set of go no go gauges.
My confusion comes from conflicting information...Savage spaces to minimum(go), yet several others say because of the belt use a no-go. My initial thought was exactly what you recommended-get both a go and no-go and be done with it. I just didn't want to spend the extra $30 if not totally necessary. All my other calibers(non-belted) get the go gauge only...am I wrong in my approach? Again, I am a newbie to smithing, so don't lash me too hard.
I would use a GO gauge and try and set your headspace as tight as possible, belted cases are notorious for case head separations just forward of the belt due to excess head clearance or "air space" between the bolt face and the rear of the case.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...eadspace-2.jpg
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...space_2_lg.jpg
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...space_1_lg.jpg
Below, its the head clearance or air space between the bolt face and the rear of the case that causes stretching and thinning at the base web area which causes case head separations.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...estretch-c.gif
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...case-bulge.jpg
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...LEARANCE-a.jpg
Below, the yellow and red areas are the high stress areas.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...p51/deform.gif
Also the only difference between a rimmed, belted and standard rimless case is the distance from the bolt face to the datum point in the chamber.
I'm going to tell you how I do it. Some people may dissagree but I think most will concur. You want to set the belt headspace tight to .002 loose maximum. Now if you plan on reloading the critical part to extend the life of your brass is either neck size only or use a full length sizing die but only bump you shoulder back .001 0r .002 thousandths. That will require a case headspace gauge like what hornady sells(and a dial caliper). The gif's that Biged posted tells the story of what happens if you dont follow those rules. Belted cases have their issues but if you get your headpace correct and keep you shoulder close to the chamber shoulder you will get long life out of your brass
NWChapman
I agree 100% with what stangfish has said above and I'll tell you why, the average full length resizing die when making hard contact with the shell holder (cam over) will push the shoulder of the case back .002 to .004 "SHORTER" than minimum headspace or the GO gauge. (some dies will push the shoulder back even further)
The most case stretching and thinning in the base web area happens the first time the case is fired so tight headspace increases case life and accuracy. When I say accuracy I mean the tight headspace helps prevent the case from stretching and distrorting on the first firing and also prevents the warped and banana shaped case. (see 1,2 and 3 below)
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...p51/runout.jpg
If you look at the circled items below that govern headspace you can see at "maximum" headspace and minimum manufacturing tolerances you can have .015 head clearance or "excess" headspace. Even if you could set the headspace to minimum or the GO gauge and then run into a case at minimum dimensions (cartridge headspace) you could have .008 head clearance on a brand new case. Therefore proper fireforming might be needed depending on your new cases "cartridge headspace length" in relation to chamber headspace.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...I_Page_077.jpg
Trust me, I have seen much worse before. (rimmed and belted cases are the worst offenders)
Below a .303 British case that is over 1/8 of an inch short of manufacturing tolerances for shoulder location.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...dp51/short.jpg
Below, how much longer the military chamber of the Enfield rifle is than American SAAMI specifications.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...1/100_1637.jpg
Knowing the exact length of your chamber and then "MINIMUM" full length resizing for "YOUR" chamber is critical for case life and accuracy.
Below, .308 cases were full length resized and making hard contact with shell holder (cam over) when resized which means they were "over" resized and the shoulder of the case was pushed back too far during resizing.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o.../308fail-1.jpg
Please note the amount of stretching listed below and when the case failed and separated. The cases below didn't stretch on the first firing "BUT" the shoulder of these cases were bumped back too far during resizing and this caused the cases to fail.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...308fail2-1.jpg
NOTE: I have seen brand new belted and rimless cartridge cases that were much shorter than minimum manufacturing tolerances. These are the cartridge cases that need fireforming at lower chamber pressures to blow out the shoulder to fit your chamber and not allow any case stretching and thinning in the web area.
I use a RCBS Case Mastering Gauge to check for stretching and thinning in the base web area.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...51/RCBSCMG.jpg
I also have GO gauges for most of my rifles, and I use them as a zero reference point with my cartridge case gages. This lets me know my chambers exact headspace setting and allows me to full length resize with minimum shoulder bump.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...Picture009.jpg
NOTE: The Hornady cartridge headspace gauge above is a "must have" and will fit every caliber you own, and in the end cost much less than separate gauges for each caliber.
Thanks for the cool graphics! All the replies are very much appreciated.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigedp51
I must confess that much of what was said is over my head. I have gone in with my buddy and started buying reloading supplies. As of now we have a RCBS Master kit, Hornady sonic cleaner, a set of Lyman shell holders, and misc go gauges, dies, bullets, brass, etc...but none of the instruments you have in the pics above. So this leads me to another generalized question-what do I really need equipment wise? Thanks for the detailed explanation, and I will order a go-gage for the .338 today. If I were going to buy a box of factory ammo for break-in, and had every intention of reloading said brass, what commercial brand offers the "best" brass?
Here has been my experience with the one belted magnum I've owned and reloaded for 25 years.
If I set the resizeing die up to touch the shellholder the cases will split in three reloadings if not before, by this I mean when I extract the case only the head comes out but most of the case stays in the chamber. I have tryed Hornady,RCBS and Redding dies and they are about the same.
To fix the problem I just set the resizeing die up a little (I just put a dime between the resizeing die and the shellholder) and basicly only neck size the case. In my case the dime thing worked well as I can now get 10 or more reloadings with the Winchester brass.
The guages the others are showing will give you a better idea of whats going on! My original 7mag is a Ruger but I just added a BVSS in 7mag and to keep everything on an even keel I just reset the headspace on the Savage to match the cases I'm reloading for the Ruger. I still use Hornady brass for the Ruger and Winchester brass for the Savage just because but I dont think it would be nessissary after I rest the headspace on the Savage(gotta like the Savage for its ability to do this as it would take a smith to fix the Ruger).
Have found that Lapua is tuff brass and worth the extra cost in most cases
Winchester has proven to be almost as tuff but not as uniform but cheaper.
Federal and Norma work in less tham max loads but if pushed hard will loosen the primer pockets. The Norma is more uniform and great brass for less than max loads.
The Hornady brass is holding up well and has been a little more uniform than Winchester.
The only remington brass I have used has been the 300Ultra and is a complete disapointment!
I see the question asked on several forums requesting advice on how to get started or which kit to buy. This is what I think is required to produce quality rifle reloads. If I missed something or you have a favorite tool, post it and I will add it. If this has been covered before sorry. It is best to research to see what the best products are in each catagory.
*A Mentor
*Relaoding Book(s): Sierra is the Benchmark but it is good to have a couple depending on whose bullets you use.
*Single Stage Press: A turret or progressive is nice but for making quality ammo it is not required. RCBS Rockchucker,Lee Classic, Hornady LNL ...
*Powder Throw. RCBS uniflow....
*Powder Scale Balance Beam: RCBS 10-10, 10-5
*Powder Scale Electronic: If you choose to go this route over a beam scale, A Gempro 250 at the minimum.(No cheap stuff. You will regret it)
*Powder trickler: RCBS, Anything really (you can add weight to the lighter ones to keep it stable.
*Powder Funnel: Get a set for different sized cases; RCBS, MTM
*Reloading Block: The Frankford Arsenal works.
*Case Trimmer: A must; Lyman or Wilson(requires holders)
*Deburring Tools: Flash hole uniformer, Inside and Outside Chamfer Cutter, Carbide Primer Pocket Uniformer/Cutter.
*Dial Calipers: Quality is good, Good resolution required for accuracy.
*Case headspace gauge: To help set up you dies so you dont bump your shoulders back to far; Hornady Case Headspace Gauge
*Dies: You can spend a lot or go cheap. The important thing is you understand how important all of you case prep is.
*Stoney Point: Actually a Hornady OAL gauge. Used to find the lands on your barrel. Requires modified cases.
*Priming tool: Hand primers are fast. RCBS is a pain but works good. The Hornady tool is nice. The older Lee was pretty good, Don't know about the new one.
*Bullet puller: At some point you will need one. Inertia or collet, just get one when you can.
*Vibratory or stainless media tumbler: Not required but makes things pretty.
There is obviously much to learn if I am to produce highly accurate ammo. I sincerely appreciate you all taking the time to post in-depth answers. I am sure I will catch on quickly after I actually get everything together and start the process. I learn the fastest when it goes from theory to application...form follows function, and I'm sure the need for a specific tool will manifest itself when I get to the point of need. I will begin to acquire the things listed that we don't yet have, and thank you very much for the post. I'm all ears, just may not get it at first. I try to immerse myself into things I don't know, and it seems like I'm in a sea of solid information. Many thanks.
I'm 62 and have been reloading for over 45 years and always thought "KISS" - Keep it simple stupid.
Just place and adjust these shims below under your lock ring for minimum shoulder bump or setback.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...dp51/shims.jpg
http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadin...prod33197.aspx
Or for big bucks you can get a set of "REDDING COMPETITION SHELLHOLDER SETS"
These shell holders will allow you to maintain hard contact (camover) between the die and shell holder.
Redding Competition Shellholders are packaged in five piece sets in .002 increments (+.002 +.004 +.006 +.008 and+.010). Each shellholder has a distinct black oxide finish and is clearly marked to indicate the amount it will decrease case-to-chamber headspace. You can now easily adjust case-to-chamber headspace of your reloads with a simple shellholderchange.Warranty: All Redding Reloading Equipment has been carefully inspected prior to shipment and is fully warranted to be free from defects in materials and workmanship for life. Any product or parts which prove to be defective will be replaced orrepaired w/out charge.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...ellholders.jpg
http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadin...prod39926.aspx
Cartridge headspace made simple.
On my old British Enfield rifles I use a trick a Canadian taught me because the headspace on these old rifle can be quite "long".
It's a rimmed cartridge so I just slip a small rubber o-ring over the case and this holds the case hard against the bolt face for fireforming.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...p51/o-ring.jpg
After fireforming you neck size only and let the rimmed case headspace on the shoulder instead of the rim.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...oheadspace.jpg
Using a light to mid range load, .312 pistol bullets and the o-ring I fireform the cases.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...pistolbjpg.jpg
KISS - made simple
Reloading Belted Magnum Calibers
Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die (part way down this page link)
http://www.larrywillis.com/
NOTE: Read all the info listed on the left hand side of this web page, it has very good tips, information and reloading gear.
Bigedp51-
Not really sure what you meant shoulder bump and setback. I'm almost exactly half your age, and have never reloaded. Not to say that I'm not capable, or worthy of learning, just getting a late start. The man that provided me with reloads for 15 years passed away in October, so I talked my best buddy into getting set up. He has no children, two empty bedrooms, and some time to kill. I, on the other hand, have 4 kids, no space, and time seasonally(HVAC...busy in summer). I never realized how much there was to loading ammo. Far more complex, when approached by someone with a perfectionist mentality, than I expected. That said, I am going to a loading "class" offered at the new Cabela's store in Rogers, AR on the 17th, so I hope that puts it all into perspective. I need to see/experience it before I can understand fully, but I guess that applies to most of us. Never been around it.
PERFECT! It will be time WELL spent!Quote:
Originally Posted by NWChapman
Bill
Reloading is not all that difficult. Reloading benchrest grade ammo and getting the most from your brass can get time consuming and difficult, not to mention expensive
I will never shoot F class or any other competitive way, but I still aspire to duplicate the performance. In my way of thinking, paper doesn't care whether the shot was good or not, but an animal does. Not that they want to die, but out of respect, it should come quickly. I feel it is my duty to cleanly, and quickly kill. Not trying to go on a tirade, or get off topic, but that is my premise. I lost the biggest buck I've ever had the pleasure of seeing in the field, both body and rack, this past season because I didn't apply the aforementioned logic. Deeply regret being under gunned for the distance of the shot. Won't happen again.
Free online reloading advice.
1. More inaccurate ammunition is reloaded because the decapping rod-expander button is locked down off center than any other reason.
2. When reloading and then practicing for a Zombie attack remember not to panic and make every shot count.
(but you can tell your friends someone else loaded the ammo and it had too much neck run out)
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...bietargets.jpg
Not sure how to take that one...
Here's a suggestion:
:focus:
NWChapman its called run out humor!Quote:
Originally Posted by NWChapman
But rumor has it Savage is making a real Zombie rifle. (and it even has a barrel nut)Quote:
Originally Posted by thomae
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...vage-ar-15.jpg