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Been a long time since I posted here, so I thought it would be worth making a post about the newer 110 long range hunter with accufit, accustock and accutrigger; the most amazing off-the-shelf reasonably priced rifle I've ever bought. It not only tames the powerful (and awesome performing) 338 LM--but does so in a fairly lightweight package. If you ever have a chance to shoot one--be sure not to miss it, and forget about the "punishing recoil" stuff you might think is coming your way.:cool:
Well there's a name I haven't seen post here in awhile. Welcome back!Quote:
Originally Posted by thermaler
Yup--life has thrown some hardballs my way lately. ; ) Really do like the new 338 LM 110--it's a spectacular cartridge and savage hit the ball out of the park in it's execution of the rifle IMO.
Only problem with the .338 LM on a Savage is that the action really isn't stout enough for it. From what I've been told, Savage originally planned to make a slightly larger diameter action for it (there's a reason all the custom actions rated for a .338 LM are larger diameter), but the bean counters scrubbed that idea because it would have meant a lot of dedicated parts just for that action/cartridge (bolt head, front baffle, FP assembly, bold body, stock, action itself, etc) that would have really driven the cost up.
So instead they tasked the engineers with making the existing 110 action "good enough" to handle the greater amount of bolt thrust generated by the .338 LM. They accomplished this by increasing the thickness of the lugs on the bolt head (dubbed the "heavy magnum" bolt head), but that only improved the sheer strength of the lugs and did nothing to increase the surface area of the lugs in contact with the receiver to better distribute that additional rearward bolt thrust energy over a greater area. To justify the new parts they simply started using them on all rifles chambered in magnum rounds (WSM's, Win' Mag's, etc) which is why these guns have their own specific front baffle and firing pin assembly now (since 2010 IIRC). More info and a photo showing the difference can be found in this FAQ article: https://www.savageshooters.com/conte...Configurations
Fred has had several Savage 110's chambered in .338 LM's come through his shop now that were exhibiting lug setback, some with less than 100 rounds fired through them. If you don't know what lug setback is, it's essentially the lugs compressing or pushing the metal in the receiver rearward ever so slightly.
Here are a couple pic's I found of a Mauser action exhibiting lug setback that were posted over at AR15.com in this thread: https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/M...Pix/14-222660/
http://images114.fotki.com/v882/phot...842/c13-vi.jpg
http://images104.fotki.com/v884/phot...7842/c7-vi.jpg
Setback will be most obvious at the top lug on a Savage as there's less material there. We're talking thousandths of an inch here, but it's something to keep in mind because any amount of setback will affect the headspace.
Actually the set back occurs on the top lug abutment. The bottom lug abutment is has less support from the mag opening, so it flexes with the bolt thrust and transfers most of the pressure to the top lug abutment. The mag well opening is set .050" forward of a standard caliber version to account for the longer magazine, leaving less material to support the lug abutment. I've seen some ultra mags that not only had set back on the lug abutments, but also compression on the top bolt lug.
Little bit of a different animal, as Mauser receivers were case-hardened and not through-hardened.
Thickness/depth of the hardening was often inconsistent (particularly wartime K98k's) as were the alloys. Heavy round count, grit could wear through thin case hardening and from that point setback of the soft "core" would rapidly progress.
For me, even as a riflesmith, I couldn't justify 3 grand to build a .338 LM that would only rarely be shot (no place beyond 600 yards available currently) and rather than barrel-up an M700 action with basically the same "issues", I bought a Savage BA Tactical; the Savage does at least have the larger lugs. I'm confident their engineers haven't ditched the usual safety factors, as a catastrophic failure would be devastating and I've yet to hear of one blowing up. An entire rifle, for the cost of an oversize Defiance receiver. Don't misunderstand, apples and oranges- but I was curious how this rig would perform in a field where they typically cost 3x as much.
Time will tell...
Barrel's the worst one I've ever seen through a borescope, but shoots honest 3/4 minute with about 100 rounds down the tube with H1000 and 300 SMK's.
I'm going to pull the barrel at 200 rounds and inspect the lug abutments to see how they're holding up. If there's no evidence of accelerated wear, and the promised JTAC Ranch in FL ever opens, I'll probably spin up a shouldered Bartlein for it. If it shows evidence of setback, I'll face off the lugs and abutments, turn it into a .300 PRC and build another off a Defiance.
I have the very same model that the OP has as well as a 112 Magnum Target. So far they've both been great but only have 40-50 rounds through them. I've heard of the lug set back problems with regular receivers but thought the Lapua specific receivers were beefed enough to not be an issue. Now reading these posts over the last few days is giving me pause. I'm wondering if you have lug set back, if you can adjust your headspace to match it and keep shooting safely or not? Or will it continue to compress deeper in to the abutments? As much as it pains me, this is making me think of switching to the RPR in this caliber.
Sorry I've been gone for a while, I wasn't ignoring these useful posts. I've got maybe a couple hundred shots through mine but haven't thought to check for any setback--in fact I wasn't really aware it's a thing with this model so I appreciate the head's up.
Thermaler if you get a chance to check your headspace, let us know what you find.
Will do. I did take a quick look at the bolt--I do have some minor pitting on the bolt face outer circumference, but saw no other signs of wear or deformation. It's camming action to the receiver is pretty stiff--so I wouldn't notice any difference after firing unless it was really bad--which so far I haven't. Recent ballistic studies I've read have shown that the 285/295 gr area are optimal for the 338 LM--so I haven't loaded any 300+ gr full-power anti-submarine level loads yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by efm77
I called savage this morning and asked for details about what "over-pressure fail factor" their system is tested to, the guy who I talked to said he didn't know or could reveal that. He also said that he wasn't aware of any bolt set-back issues involved with this model nor that they had been notified by any gunsmiths of any. He also said I was free to send the gun to them for an inspection if I wanted to.
Thanks for that update. I haven't heard of any issues of it either but am curious to find out more about it. The only place I've heard of it being a problem was on this forum from Sharpshooter and a couple others. He said he's seen it on Lapua models, as well as RUM's and WSM's. I've asked a couple times on Facebook pages dedicated to Savages as well as 338 LM's and no one on either of those pages reported having any issues. One guy claims to have over 15k rounds through one (I'm sure he's changed barrels in that time, but was referring to the action itself) with no issues, and about 3k through another with no issues. I've got a set of 338 Lapua headspace gauges that I will monitor mine with to keep an eye on it as well. As to the camming action of the action itself, yes it is inherently stiff anyway so would be hard to tell. Like you though, I haven't had any issues yet.
I have seen issues mentioned with the older 111 LRH and 110BA--but not this new 110 LRH. I think what it really comes down to is is the schema for the bolt and receiver construction any different between this latest model and the older ones. I can't really tell since I don't have any of these. The only other comparable "big boomer" I have is a 375 ruger mossberg patriot--compared to it the 110 LRH 338 LM feels like a 22LR LOL It has a heavy three-lug bolt design--but the rifle itself is very light weight for such a powerful cartridge.Quote:
Originally Posted by efm77
The only issues I remember about the older ones was Hornady brass sticking. When switching to another brass the problem went away I was told. I was also told that Hornady's brass was too soft. I thin Hornady has remedied that as well as I've been shooting some of their brass in my Lapuas without issue.
The Mossberg Patriot has 3 lugs? I wasn't aware of that. Thought it was a standard two lug design.
I’ll have to double check my rifle I haven’t had it out of the safe in about a year but I believe the 375 Ruger bolt is a three lug bolt I’ll double check.Quote:
Originally Posted by efm77
EDIT: I lied, the Mossberg Patriot 375 bolt is only two lugged, in fact it looks like the lug engagement area is less robust than that of the savage 338 LM 110 LRH. However, the receiver looks thicker.
Another "feel" test for lug/abutment wear would be to remove the cocking pin & cocking sleeve from the bolt. Reassemble and close bolt on empty chamber. Slowly open bolt with slight backwards pressure on the bolt. Rough lugs or abutments would most likely not "feel" smooth but sticky or catchy. Galled lugs are easily felt this way in addition to a visual.
Thanks for that--I'll give it a try maybe at the same time the ptg gauges come in. In the meantime, I took delivery on an axis 2 in 350 legend today--a "runt" gun with a 18" barrel. LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by mnbogboy2
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnbogboy2
Good point. I always do that when checking headspace anyway and it does allow for more feel otherwise as well.