Boyd Stock for Model 16 FCSS, Short Action, DBM

Guy's, I am struggling to understand why there is no Boyd Stock in the At-One Thumbhole version for my Savage Model 16, FCSS, DBM, .243 (Same problem with Model 14) Their small print for this rifle say's "Center to Center of Action Screws: 4 7/16" and from what I understand my Model 16 is short action with 3rd generation center to center action screw spacing of 4.400" only 0.0375" or 1mm difference. What am I missing here.

Would a Boyd Model 12 At-One Thumbhole fit instead?

Boyds response:
"I do not show the At One Thumbhole as being available for the 16 Bottom bolt release for some reason must be something that doesn’t work together."

Any suggestions? Thanks.

What they're listing as 4-7/16 is the 4.40" action length, they just insist on being different for some dumb reason. Their customer support people aren't well versed in the nuances of Savage 110's to be able to answer simple question such as yours.


Using their menu's, select the following:

Make: Savage
Model: 11 Bottom Bolt Release or 11 Top Bolt Release (whichever your rifle has - likely bottom bolt release)
Action: Short Action, Detachable Magazine

That should show an At-One Thumbhole option for ya.

I got a quick answer from their customer Serv., and was politely told that the DBM Mag. was the reason their thumb hole At-One wasn't available for the 110 Tactical. ;) some times you get the bear, and some times the bear gets you

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Originally Posted by J.Baker

What they're listing as 4-7/16 is the 4.40" action length, they just insist on being different for some dumb reason. Their customer support people aren't well versed in the nuances of Savage 110's to be able to answer simple question such as yours.


Using their menu's, select the following:

Make: Savage
Model: 11 Bottom Bolt Release or 11 Top Bolt Release (whichever your rifle has - likely bottom bolt release)
Action: Short Action, Detachable Magazine

That should show an At-One Thumbhole option for ya.

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What's the difference between 11/16 models and 10/12 models? Is it the bottom metal configuration?

It would be very frustrating to be in the aftermarket stock making business with all the minor changes the rifle mfgs do from year to year, and, the changes in nomenclature that confuses all the changes. Not even counting all the variations within a model line.

Charlie - I both agree and disagree with you, mostly disagree.....

If you are a small volume, custom stock manufacturer, or you are making high end stocks for selected purposes (bench, etc), then all of the changes done year to year would be very frustrating and extremely time consuming to keep up with. It would make your business very complex, and frankly, one of the reasons that your stocks would need to cost what they cost.

On the other hand, if you are a high volume "mass" market stock supplier, that's the reason your company exists. Its your company's business to have good relationships with the manufacturers, to be able to get information from their engineering departments, and potentially get samples to help you plan the various versions you need.

If nothing else, buy the rifles, use them to make your forms, models, etc, and then resell the rifles later once they are proven good to go.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shooter0302

I got a quick answer from their customer Serv., and was politely told that the DBM Mag. was the reason their thumb hole At-One wasn't available for the 110 Tactical. ;) some times you get the bear, and some times the bear gets you

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The 110 Tactical uses different bottom metal for the AICS mags than the standard bottom metal for the factory 3-5rd mags. The bottom metal for the AICS mags is only used on AccuStock-equipped models that have a shorter recoil lug. If you try to inlet a stock for that bottom metal for a gun with a standard (longer) recoil lug you'll end up with a hole in the stock connecting the recoil lug pocket and bottom metal inlet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bill2905

What's the difference between 11/16 models and 10/12 models? Is it the bottom metal configuration?

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Model 10's and 12's (recent production at least) typically always have a heavy barrel, while Model 11 and 16 typically always have sporter barrels. Of course, that logic flies right out the flippin window every time Savage does some goofy special build for some retailer or distributor that is outside the norm. This is why you have to look at the specific features of YOUR rifle and match them up to the features outlined in the description for Boyds stocks because they can't possibly keep up with the multitude of model variations and design changes Savage keeps spitting out either.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J.Baker

The 110 Tactical uses different bottom metal for the AICS mags than the standard bottom metal for the factory 3-5rd mags. The bottom metal for the AICS mags is only used on AccuStock-equipped models that have a shorter recoil lug. If you try to inlet a stock for that bottom metal for a gun with a standard (longer) recoil lug you'll end up with a hole in the stock connecting the recoil lug pocket and bottom metal inlet.

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Great information Jim. Don't know if this matters but with a different model, I saw where the the lug pocket and the DBM inlet are open to each other and it causes no problems that I am aware of. It was a laminate stock. Im guessing it is the reason that the forward boss on the DBM frames were changed to keep this from happening.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by txrob5150

Charlie - I both agree and disagree with you, mostly disagree.....

If you are a small volume, custom stock manufacturer, or you are making high end stocks for selected purposes (bench, etc), then all of the changes done year to year would be very frustrating and extremely time consuming to keep up with. It would make your business very complex, and frankly, one of the reasons that your stocks would need to cost what they cost.

On the other hand, if you are a high volume "mass" market stock supplier, that's the reason your company exists. Its your company's business to have good relationships with the manufacturers, to be able to get information from their engineering departments, and potentially get samples to help you plan the various versions you need.

If nothing else, buy the rifles, use them to make your forms, models, etc, and then resell the rifles later once they are proven good to go.

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I agree and disagree with your assessment.... :cool:

In some regards custom stock makers have it easier, but in other ways it's much harder for them.

Using SSS as an example, Fred had the forethought to write his CNC programs for the inletting in sub-programs for each section of the inlet (action/trigger area, magazine well/bottom metal, barrel channel) so that he can pretty much make a stock for any Savage 110 based rifle ever made in whatever configuration you want. The downside is every single stock he makes is made to order meaning there's no making them in batches and having them in-stock on the shelf and ready to ship which means order fulfillment takes longer.

Using McMillan as an example, they only offer their stocks for Savage rifles in a few select configurations because either A) they don't have inlet programs for the others, and/or B) other configurations simply aren't workable in their existing molds and they're not willing to make up new specific designs and molds just for Savage rifles. And like SSS they're made to order so the fulfillment time is lengthy. (same with Manner's stocks)

The mass production stock makers (Bell & Carlson, Choate, etc) can only afford to make stocks in bulk like they do because they are offering specific configurations - configurations that are the most common and will have the best chances of selling enough units to justify the cost of the tooling to make them. By doing so they are able to make their product in bulk and offer it at a lower price (less profit per unit) than the custom makers as they're banking on making their profit from a much higher volume of sales.

The long lead time for the custom stock makers is their Achille's Heel in this modern era. The vast majority of customers simply aren't willing to wait 6-8-10 months for a custom stock to be made and delivered. This is the #1 reason why chassis stocks have become so popular in recent years - those making them can mass produce the main chassis and their customers can then customize them however they want while finishing them out via the grip, buttstock, etc. But, just like the mass producers, the chassis makers mostly only offer their product for a few specific configurations - those which are the most common or popular and will sell the most units.

The vast majority of Savage's centerfire rifles sales over the past 25-30 years has always been their package rifles - which for several years now have all come equipped with the Axis-style magazine. These are the Trohpy Hunter XP's, Engage XP's, Apex XP's, etc. and their predecessors. For every 10 centerfire rifles Savage sells, 8 (if not 9) of them are package rifles. The "specialty" models like the Target Series, Varmint Series, etc. only account for 10-15% of Savage's overall centerfire rifle sales at best. As such the aftermarket mass production stock makers are going to gear their product offerings toward those rifles with the higher sales volume as that's going to get them the most sales and the biggest profit by volume.

Boyds fall some where in the middle of a custom maker and a mass producer. They make a ton of stocks, but they also offer stocks for thousands of different rifles and shotguns. That number would jump up into the tens of thousands if they offered stocks for every variation of all the firearms they currently offer stocks for. So in that regard their selection is somewhat limited as far as configurations go, but at the same time you get a bit of the custom options by being able to specific the wood type and laminate color you want, the LOP you want, what kind of recoil pad you want, if you want checkering or not, etc.

Simply put, Boyds lets you have your cake and eat it to - you just aren't guaranteed it will be the type of cake you want.

Thanks J. I was trying to make a long story short :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J.Baker

Model 10's and 12's (recent production at least) typically always have a heavy barrel, while Model 11 and 16 typically always have sporter barrels. Of course, that logic flies right out the flippin window every time Savage does some goofy special build for some retailer or distributor that is outside the norm. This is why you have to look at the specific features of YOUR rifle and match them up to the features outlined in the description for Boyds stocks because they can't possibly keep up with the multitude of model variations and design changes Savage keeps spitting out either.

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Thanks for your reply Mr Baker,
So what do you think are the critical measurements that I should look at on my Model 16, DBM, bottom bolt release rifle to see if a At One Thumbhole will fit.? Are Boyd's too broad on their stock/rifle matchups do you think? I like the Feather Weight Thumbhole stock but the At One Thumbhole looks/feels better IMHO.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bullbarrel

Thanks for your reply Mr Baker,
So what do you think are the critical measurements that I should look at on my Model 16, DBM, bottom bolt release rifle to see if a At One Thumbhole will fit.? Are Boyd's too broad on their stock/rifle matchups do you think? I like the Feather Weight Thumbhole stock but the At One Thumbhole looks/feels better IMHO.

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You're making this a LOT harder than it needs to be. Scroll back up to my first reply to you as I already explained which options to pick from their menus. Do that and anything that shows up as available there will fit your rifle.

After the multitude of threads on ordering a Boyds stock in the last week or so I'm starting to think I should write a book and sell it on Amazon called "Ordering a Boyds Stock for a Savage 110 for Dummies".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J.Baker

You're making this a LOT harder than it needs to be. Scroll back up to my first reply to you as I already explained which options to pick from their menus. Do that and anything that shows up as available there will fit your rifle.

After the multitude of threads on ordering a Boyds stock in the last week or so I'm starting to think I should write a book and sell it on Amazon called "Ordering a Boyds Stock for a Savage 110 for Dummies".

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Can I order the first copy?

J - I mostly agree with you and I think we are mostly saying the same thing, but feel like I am hijacking a thread, and apologize if I am and will stop if asked but this is a fascinating topic to me, particularly in the firearms aftermarket world.....

My background is in semi-custom products for retail also, so in my industry we experience a lot of these same issues, and I think you hit the nail on the head with your examples.

Those that want to offer on-shelf, in-demand stocks will by default be limited to the high volume configurations, and I have no issue with that and see no problems with that aspect of some custom stock suppliers, particularly Boyd's. Their "Rapid Fire" section is where you would find those, and I agree for Savage it should be slanted to the "package" rifles.

But for those who sell "custom" stocks, including Boyd's, I don't know that it makes logical manufacturing sense to have your inletting programs set up in any manner except the way that Fred set his up using sub-programs or sub-assemblies, and by that logic, it should not be that difficult for a volume supplier like Boyd's to keep up with the various sub-programs available and configure the new ones as they come up. In my mind, there is no business reason Boyd's should not be able to offer their thumbhole laminate stock inlet for any configuration of Savage rifle with a 7-10 day lead time, as an example. The only logical reason that I can think of that they can not do it is that they have allowed a "we have always dont it this way" mentality into their product development side, and that makes them unwilling to look at making major changes to the business model.

I also agree with you that the custom stock manufacturers who work off of 6-10 month lead times are "dead man walking" in the industry.

Funny thing is, if a company like Boyd's could manage to reconfigure themselves, and offer true custom inlet stocks for all models in both laminate and fiberglass on a 7-10 day lead time, they could probably knock a number of those custom manufacturers out of business.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by txrob5150

J - I mostly agree with you and I think we are mostly saying the same thing, but feel like I am hijacking a thread, and apologize if I am and will stop if asked but this is a fascinating topic to me, particularly in the firearms aftermarket world.....

My background is in semi-custom products for retail also, so in my industry we experience a lot of these same issues, and I think you hit the nail on the head with your examples.

Those that want to offer on-shelf, in-demand stocks will by default be limited to the high volume configurations, and I have no issue with that and see no problems with that aspect of some custom stock suppliers, particularly Boyd's. Their "Rapid Fire" section is where you would find those, and I agree for Savage it should be slanted to the "package" rifles.

But for those who sell "custom" stocks, including Boyd's, I don't know that it makes logical manufacturing sense to have your inletting programs set up in any manner except the way that Fred set his up using sub-programs or sub-assemblies, and by that logic, it should not be that difficult for a volume supplier like Boyd's to keep up with the various sub-programs available and configure the new ones as they come up. In my mind, there is no business reason Boyd's should not be able to offer their thumbhole laminate stock inlet for any configuration of Savage rifle with a 7-10 day lead time, as an example. The only logical reason that I can think of that they can not do it is that they have allowed a "we have always dont it this way" mentality into their product development side, and that makes them unwilling to look at making major changes to the business model.

I also agree with you that the custom stock manufacturers who work off of 6-10 month lead times are "dead man walking" in the industry.

Funny thing is, if a company like Boyd's could manage to reconfigure themselves, and offer true custom inlet stocks for all models in both laminate and fiberglass on a 7-10 day lead time, they could probably knock a number of those custom manufacturers out of business.

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Tell ya what, you call up Boyds and try to talk some sense into them. They came to me a couple years back asking for my help on how to simplify their menu for Savage stocks, but apparently they didn't like my solution.

Fact is, Savage has just made such a mess of things by making so many changes over the years and more recently using the Axis-style mag's on so many models that it makes it all but impossible to put together a simple menu system that would work. The other part of the problem is that even if they did, most owners don't know enough about their rifle to know what to select from those menu's to match their rifle.

Fair enough Mr. Baker just having a fun conversation.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J.Baker

What they're listing as 4-7/16 is the 4.40" action length, they just insist on being different for some dumb reason. Their customer support people aren't well versed in the nuances of Savage 110's to be able to answer simple question such as yours.


Using their menu's, select the following:

Make: Savage
Model: 11 Bottom Bolt Release or 11 Top Bolt Release (whichever your rifle has - likely bottom bolt release)
Action: Short Action, Detachable Magazine

That should show an At-One Thumbhole option for ya.

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Well well, what'll you know. i have just been back on to the Boyds site and it looks like they were confused/mixed up between the Model 16 Top & Bottom Bolt Releases for an At-One Thumbhole stock. Originally the At-One Thumbhole was not available for my Model 16 Bottom Bolt Realease but now it is. Unfortunately now the At-One Thumbhole isn't available for the Top Bolt Release. Complete mix up but thanks to Boyds for getting it sorted.
Any reason why, I wonder, the Top Bolt Release wont fit an At One Thumhole stock?

I recently ordered a lightweight thumbhole laminate stock for a customer's mod 16, it's a bottom bolt release, bottom drop magazine. When I came to assemble it, the bolt release / trigger guard would not come close to fitting the inletting and there was no catch to hold the magazine in place. (most of the Savage stocks I have used came with a metal or plastic piece that was held in place by the front action screw)

I called Boyds customer service and was told that they could sell me a metal, bottom bolt release trigger guard, but no BD magazine catch was availible. To allow the stock to work, I would have to purchase a new bottom iron and new magazine bases directly from Savage. A call to Savage customer service got me the information that they could/would supply the parts to fix this issue for $180.00 plus shipping.

My customer (rightly so ) is reluctant to spend $150.00 for the stock and then another $180.00 for parts to make it work. He wants me to send it back. (yep, I'm losing the sale and the bench time, as well as, likely, a good customer)

Anybody see a better way out of this impasse?

Thanks RED

I finally opened a new box of google foo, that led me to an offering by EA Brown Co. It's a molded plastic piece that fits into the hole in the Boyds stock, for the bottom drop magazine, and provides a catch for the plastic latch on the factory center feed magazine. I found another poster here who bedded the little plastic bottom iron in place. (he provided the lead to the EAB Co piece as well, Thank You)

I'm going to pillar bed the action at the same time as the Plastic bottom iron (it has metal anti crush inserts molded into it that I will fit to the pillars)

This whole deal begs the question, Why doesn't Boyds include one with the stock in BDM configuration or at least tell the customer what's available, as an extra cost option, besides the high dollar Savage offering required to make the stock a "drop in". placing a production rifle into a production stock really should not be this frustrating and complicated, should it?

Looks like the normal amount of fitting and clean up, for a Boyds stock, will make the bottom bolt release trigger guard work like it should.

Thanks again, for the help. crawling back under my rock now.

Paul in da swamp